0:06

hi, I'm Glynis Traill-Nash and thanks for joining me for In Fashion. Now I know I'm not alone in enjoying a bit of red carpet action, and the Oscars have always held a special place in celebrity style, which brings me to this week's guest. I first met Dijanna Mulhern when she headed up PR for Prada and Miu Miu in Australia, and then through her work as a fashion journalist, a newspaper columnist. She's just released her third book Red Carpet Oscars via Thames Hudson Globally, and it really is a feast. It charts Oscar's fashion every year since the first event in 1929, right through to last year. Of course there are plenty of fabulous images, but it's the way in which she discusses Oscar's fashion and its place in our cultural and social history that is really fascinating. I hope you enjoy this episode of In Fashion with Dijanna Mulhearn.

GTN 1:05

Dijanna, hello. I have to say, first of all, congratulations on what is a tome.

Dijanna 1:11

Thank you.

GTN 1:12

Yes. And as a fellow journalist, I have to say that I had two immediate thoughts about this book. First, when you told me that you were doing it and what it was about, I just went, oh my God, what a genius idea. And how has no one done this already? Mm-hmm. My second thought when I saw the book at the launch was, oh my God, how big is it and how much research went into this? it's epic.

Dijanna 1:35

It is epic. It was two years and it was during Covid, so, you know, COVID was a terrible thing. But for me as a writer, It kept me tethered to the desk, cause otherwise it would've been four years, quite frankly. However, it kept me company. Yeah, during those Covid times, and I really came to get to know people and get to love people in a way that never would've happened had I not done this book. And then you got to know all these brilliant costume designers who truly understood what an image can say before you even open your mouth. I was worried that especially in the early years, there wouldn't be a lot of material and there's not. Mm-hmm. But what is available in the early years is really strong, so that they might not have covered the red carpet as much as we'd expect, however, because the costume designers were so heavily involved in what stars were wearing on the red carpet, it, there was just sort of a cornucopia of information.

GTN 2:33

On that, we, you had these brilliant people like Edith Head and I think Helen Rose and Adrian, all these people who were designing incredible gowns for the films and everything. Yeah. Now they, they, as you say, were absolutely integral in those early years.

Dijanna 2:45

Absolutely. And not just in the, in the, in the roles for film, but in the, in the personalities that the studios wanted to portray of the stars to the public. Nowadays you are, you have more access to actors and actresses and what they really feel and they're in control of their personal time. Back then, you know, you were sort of put into a box. You are the girl next door, and whether it's on film or off, you always need to portray that. And so the costume designers had a hand in their off screen wardrobes as well as their onscreen wardrobes. And, um, and they were just geniuses. I mean, I would love to have met any one of them, right.

GTN 3:23

Edith Head just fascinates me.

Dijanna 3:25

Absolutely. And I'm, I'm completely obsessed with Adrian as well. I mean, he looked to Europe for the styles that he put on film, and then he exaggerated those styles that he was seeing from the European fashion designers for film. And then the European fashion designers were in turn influenced by his version. So it was like this revolution of, of Hollywood and high fashion. And a lot of the European designers were snobbish about it. Oh, how dare. He, it's just, you know, it's sort of making it all common. But the clever designers were going, no, no. He's actually exposing us and our work to a broader audience, and isn't that what we want? So it's really interesting to see the two sides of the coin there.

GTN 4:07

Yeah. And it was interesting that the Oscars weren't televised until I think 1953. That's right. And then they, Edith had a special role,

Dijanna 4:17

God bless her, Edith, she was the original fashion police. Edith, who was the most awarded costume designer by that point. And I think she might still be, she was assigned the role of wardrobe mistress to make sure that everybody was television appropriate because of the sensors and things like that. Oh, love. So there she was at her kind of lectern backstage with her crew of what we would call now stylists, a crew of assistants who had all manner of accessories, rosettes, veils, shawls, so that if a an actress turned up in a dress that was a little too risque, they would then attach all of these accessories to make her more television appropriate.

GTN 5:01

I love that so much. Yeah. I look, cause she looks, she looks quite, she looked like a bit like a kind of school mistress as well in a way.

Dijanna 5:07

Absolutely. She was very clever because she knew her place and she knew how to endear herself to the stars. So she never competed with them or tried to be more fashionable. She operated in a way that. Um, she served them, however, it was them that came to rely on her. And so she kind of did rule like a school ma'am. I mean, brilliant just thought about every aspect of her career and thought about every aspect of every garment that she was making for all the people she was dressing. Yeah.

GTN 5:38

But can you tell us a few examples about how kind of stars either manipulated their image, perhaps to kind of, be a version of their screen self or perhaps go against their screen persona?

Dijanna 5:48

I guess the original, the original and the best was probably Bette Davis. The first time she won Best actress, she accepted her award in an outfit that was made for a movie for the character of a maid or a servant. And her point was that she was saying to the studios, you treat us like the hired help, because they had no autonomy in which roles they could accept. And she'd had a massive falling out with Jack Warner because she wanted to play gritty roles. And he said, no, no, we've shaped you into this sort of more feminine uh, kind of personality. And if you take a gritty role, then it blasts away the public's perception of who you are. And she's like, but I'm an actress. I should be able to take whatever role I want. So that was her protest, I guess. And that was only like five years in. She protested. And then I love the fact that she so understood the power of clothing that she, three years later, when she accepted another best actress award, she had been making Elizabeth and Essex. And so she tapped into all the royalty tropes, like the big collar, the tight bodice, the huge skirt at a time when people were wearing more bias cut gowns in order to position herself as royalty. And it worked. And she remained Hollywood royalty pretty much to the end.

GTN 7:03

And isn't it fascinating when you see in the book, there's photos of her, like very late in life. And she's still quite that Hollywood star of, of that former age.

Dijanna 7:13

Absolutely. I think in Bette Davis's case, nothing was arbitrary. Everything was very deliberate and very planned. And she was aware that people were watching and she wanted to control their perception. So that's a smart actress.

GTN 7:29

Are there any others like that to your mind?

Dijanna 7:32

Well, I think Cher was, was expert. She wanted to enter Hollywood and be taken seriously. But she of course, initially went in as a musician or a musical artist and a television star because she had the fabulous show.

GTN 7:46

Oh my God. Costumes. Bob Mackie, I, my God,

Dijanna 7:49

Swoon, Swoon, swoon. We could, we should just do like a marathon of Sonny and Cher and then the Cher Show. But she knew that in order to get an opportunity, she had to get noticed. And so she was the queen of pushing boundaries from one year to the next, to the next. And so I think Cher was somebody who was at the forefront of stealing the attention away from the award winners. So when Cher came in at a round, well, initially in 67, but let's call it the early seventies, when she really hit her stride, uh, people were anticipating more what she was going to wear than who was going to win. And that was, where I think things pivoted from a fashion perspective. So somebody else who really controlled their image. I really fell in love with Marlene Dietrich. I mean, what a woman, what woman? I always knew she was special, but I just didn't realize how smart and savvy this woman was. So one of my favorite moments was when she had come back from World War II, where she had, acted on behalf of the French resistance against the Germans. So she came back as a bit of a hero.

GTN 8:54

Bonafide legend.

Dijanna 8:54

Um, it was her only appearance at the Oscars ever. She was presenting an award and she was collaborating with the Christian Dior on what to wear. And he was also very particular. So you had these collaborators, Marlene Dietrich, very particular about her career choices. Christian Dior, one of the most celebrated designers ever. And so she went to him and said, I'm going to present this award. I'd love you to dress me. And he said, okay, well what will everybody, what color will everybody else be wearing? And you know, You know, post-war, so bright, happy colors, lots of whites, lots of frou frou. And he said, great. You'll be wearing black. And what shape do you think everyone will be wearing? Well, this was celebrations. So springtime ball gowns with the big skirts to demonstrate, you know, affluence and a new beginning. And he said, great. You'll be wearing a straight skirt. And, what side of the stage will you be entering from? She's coming from the left. Good. We'll put a great big split up the left side so that when you walk, you'll release a bare leg. Now this is a woman who was 51 love, 51, might as well have been dead in the eyes of Hollywood. And she slayed. She absolutely slayed. And what I love even more about it is waiting in the wings was a young unknown Marilyn Monroe in a springtime ballgown shape, albeit it was black. She was on top of that. And she's looking at this 51 year old. I mean goddess stride out onto the stage and the place erupts. And I feel that immediately I started to look at what Marilyn wore from that point on, and I really feel like that was a poignant moment for her. Mm-hmm. Where she saw an expert really take control. And she was a quick study and a very smart woman. So immediately she started to incorporate aspects of that into her own image.

GTN 10:47

I love that. And I had no idea Marilyn only attended one...

Dijanna 10:51

that one too.

GTN 10:52

Oscars

Dijanna 10:53

Marlene Dietrich and Marilyn Monroe only attended one, it was the same one.

GTN 10:56

How bizarre.

Dijanna 10:57

It is so bizarre. But I think it was because she was always working. You know, they really worked them hard. These people were on contract, so they just went from one role to the other. I mean, we look at, we look at Janet Gayner, who won the very first Academy Award for best actress. She came straight from set. In the clothes that she had because she had absolutely no time to get anything else. Plus she didn't even know what she was going to. She thought it was just a dinner, which it was. It's just that everybody else wore their finery cause they knew what was going on. Poor old Janet Gaynor. And I love that because there's this sort of meek sweet girl accepting this best first ever best actress award. And you've got people like Norma Shearer and, and Mary Pickford in the audience going, I'll be having that next year, thank you very much. And straight away the race was on. And then Janet Gaynor went on to, wed the famous, uh, costume designer, Adrian.

GTN 11:52

No.

Dijanna 11:53

Yes. Yes. So she made up for it after that because he dressed her after that. So she was never looking like the girl next door. She was always in the beautiful, yes.

GTN 12:02

How amazing.

Dijanna 12:03

It's a small town, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Oh wow. So yeah, other moments that's really strike me in the eyes of the public is, the moment that Anne Bancroft presented best actor to Sydney Poitier at a time when civil rights was, you know, a hot issue. It still is, but when it was really, really kind of flammable, let's say, people were still on both sides of the fence and people still believed in segregation in some parts of the US. And you had this, this wonderful actress in Anne Bancroft wearing a pure white goddess gown presenting this best actor award to Sydney Poitier and in front of the country and the world she plants a big kiss on his cheek. And for me, that horrified so many people in the audience. But it also showed a lot of people that this was okay. Yeah, this was, this was, and this is the great thing about actors. They embody so many characters. They learn so much more about the world than we do because they live so many lives through their characters. Mm. And they're so progressive. And so I think it's perfectly appropriate that they be the ones to show us where we can go next as a society. And that to me was a poignant moment. Yeah.

GTN 13:17

I love what you're saying about Janet Gayner just arriving in this outfit, because there've been some great examples of people being plucked. Train stations and things to come...

Dijanna 13:25

absolutely.

GTN 13:25

...and get their awards. And,

Dijanna 13:27

well, in the early years, it became apparent pretty quickly that American Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, the people who who run the Academy Awards, were studio run. So the top five studios really had control. And so it was really only their movies that kept winning because they were using it as a publicity tool. And quite frankly, it still is a publicity tool to get people to see their movies. Mm. And so the acting fraternity realized pretty quickly that, that it was a ruse. And so some actors just didn't want to go. Like Claudette Colbert tried to get on a train to New York and they stopped the train, took her off the train, ferried her to the award ceremony, held up the train, she accepted the award, then they put her back on the train and allowed the train to go to New York. That's the kind of power that they had. Oh my God. Louise Rainer as well. At home, somebody rings her up and says, put on a frock. You've won. Best actress, you're expected to be here. The studio expects you to represent. And she, you know, the, the best dress she had was this sort of satiny night dress. So she threw a white fur coat on top, kept the coat closed for most of the night because, you know, white fur coat that was about as flash as it got.

GTN 14:45

I love the bit about the white fur coat because there, there are certain trends that were very prevalent in those early years. Yeah. Because this book goes from the very first Oscars in 1929, of course, right through until last year. Yes. Um, and some of those early trends, everyone was wearing a corsage, a floral corsage

Dijanna 15:01

corsage had its moment. White gloves had their moment. They're coming back apparently. um fur, And then not fur had its moment. Tiara's had a moment. Thank you, Elizabeth Taylor. Who did it better than everybody. I find now there are less trends. I mean, I don't know, this year there was no red carpet. It was beige. And I, I thought the, the, the fashions kind of suited the carpet a bit. Don't you think? A little bit, yeah, a little bit. I mean, Cate Blanchett was amazing, amazing. And really stood out. And I really liked, um, Janelle Monae as well.

GTN 15:39

I adore How great is she? Janelle Monae? Yeah. She's, I'm a bit obsessed.

Dijanna 15:42

She's turning into quite the fashion plate. Yeah. Um, and, and she was probably one of the more interesting ones this year as well, but the rest of them was as beige as the carpet. I mean, I, I felt, because my book stops last year, I was like, oh, will it date? And then when I saw that beige carpet, I thought, no, my book's called red carpet. But also my book is more about teaching you how to read the red carpet than it is about what's, you know, what the dresses are, per se. Yeah. It's about learning how to read a look, learning to understand the subtext of what people are wearing and why people are wearing things. And I'm hoping that that's something that people can learn through the book and apply in life. Mm-hmm. Not only to read what other people are wearing, but also to layer their own looks with meaning. Um, as you know, that's a big thing for me is how do I say what I need to say before I open my mouth? How do I kind of expose that aspect of my personality that is appropriate for that moment? Because we're all multifaceted. Is this loud, Dijanna? Is this shy dijanna? Yes, she does exist. Is this studious Dijanna is, which Dijanna do I want to portray? And when I used to, um, write for the magazines years ago, you know, I'm quite tall. And at that time for some reason, most of the editors I worked with were really short. So I used to always wear a lot of jewelry on my hands and big belts. Never any earrings or bright lipstick or anything cuz I wanted to draw the eye down so that I didn't look so physically overpowering. That's funny. I mean that's that to that, to that point, you know, that's how considered I would be about what I was wearing to meet anybody. And it wasn't a manipulation, it was a consideration. How can I make that person more comfortable with me? Yeah. And how can I deliver to them what it is they need from me for this purpose? Yeah.

GTN 17:31

So, ah, interesting.

Dijanna 17:33

And that's what makes fashion fun too. Yeah, yeah. Rather than just, isn't this pretty I'll pluck that off the rack. Yeah. It's like, okay, what story am I telling today about myself? Who am I seeing and what part of me do I want them to know more?

GTN 17:45

It's interesting what you're saying about the current red carpet, because obviously red carpets follow trends broadly in fashion. You know, the Yes. Late forties into all the fifties was very much dominated by that Dior new look silhouette. Sure. Um, the sixties into the seventies, you did get touches of the kind of hippie and flower power Sure. gypset and all of that. Yes. Eighties extravagance. Nineties minimalism. How do you look at this current. You know, the last decade say, and how do you sort of summarize it?

Dijanna 18:12

I call it the age of the individual. Yeah. That's what I call it because I think everybody has a point of view and finally they feel like they can voice it. So, you know, again, if we're talking about, um, garments that really make a statement, the Dior cape that Natalie Portman wore with the names of the female directors that were snubbed for nomination. I mean, what a statement. And I felt like because it was a cape, she was kind of their superhero. Yeah. You know, cause she was sort of Yeah. Flying in on their behalf. And, um, so I feel like, you know, from that to Billy Porter feeling confident enough to make his statement, which was probably the most poignant red carpet statement ever.

GTN 18:54

Yeah. In the Christian Siriano the tuxedo gown.

Dijanna 18:57

Oh yeah. Amazing. And so clever because Christian Siriano was clever enough to make it palatable by sort of marrying traditional gentlemens wear with traditional, formal ladies wear in a color that we could all cope with. And it didn't make it costumey, it made it quite serious. And it was a statement that we could all accept. And I feel like people like Timothy Chalamet and Harry Styles have Billy Porter to thank for the fact that they can be so free with what they're wearing and quite frankly, get a lot of attention for it as well.

GTN 19:30

I'm fascinated by the whole men's thing because really it's, it's since that Billy Porter moment, That it's just kind of, it's a free for all for guys. Now finally, cuz they've towed the tuxedo line for decades, doing the right thing and sticking to the codes with a few people going slightly off piste occasionally. But, now it is genuinely a melting pot for guys. And how fabulous. It's been the most interesting thing to me that's happened.

Dijanna 19:55

I mean, they're kind of overshadowing the women a little bit. Totally. Now because they're doing so many things that are fresh and new. I felt like in, in looking through the book, you know, in the early seventies, men had a moment cause they did the frilly shirts or the, you know, the printed shirt. They, and, and I felt like they were influenced by musicians more than anything. Cause the musicians are the bravest, they were the guys. They were the ones. And even as recently as sort of 2012, it was the musicians that were appearing at the Oscars because they'd written a song for a movie or something that was starting to be more vibrant. But the one that was consistently more vibrant was Jared Leto. He started to sort of crack the door open a bit, and then Billy Porter just blasted it off its hinges.

GTN 20:39

And I'm really curious what Jared Lito's gonna do now that Alessandro has left Gucci, because he's really gonna have to find either, either Alessandro is gonna have to make stuff specifically for him going forward in the same sort of style. Yes. Or he's gonna have to find some new

Dijanna 20:56

A new, yeah, a new partner. I'm really interested in what he's going to do next as well because of the fact that he kind of was the benchmark for a minute and then Billy Porter happened and now Timothy Chalamet has taken the cudgels and run with them clearly. Yeah. And so I wanna see what Jared's gonna do to sort of reclaim his space. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. And I was really saddened that none of them were there this year. It was like, where are all the people who are making the big statements and taking the risks? Really Janelle Monae was the only one. Yeah. And Cate Blanchett, because she has her own point of view. Yeah. So, and I thought that Louis Vuitton gown was just heaven on a stick.

GTN 21:37

Now Cate actually writes one of the introductory pieces for the book, as does Mr. Armani. Yes. How did that come about?

Dijanna 21:43

so I've, I've known Cate for quite a while. We met when our sons went to the same school, so we kind of became friends and our sons became friends and our, basically our families became friends at the same time. The minute we met, we really hit it off. And we would talk about the communication values of clothing. We would talk about how we felt fashion was progressing and we would talk about the problems with fashion as well, a lot. And so when this book came up, you know, I approached her about writing the Forward, but as a friend I said, you know, this is my business hat. I'm asking you as a business person because it's my job. Would you mind writing the forward? And as a business person, please feel free to say no because you know, with somebody whose career is, is so intense, there are a lot of stakeholders in that career. So you need to, publicity needs to approve it. Management needs to approve it. However, she just said yes straight away. She said, of course I will. You know, it's a brilliant idea. And like you, she said, how has no one done this before? People have written about fashion on the red carpet at the Oscars before. I just don't think they've done it. And, and I draw from a lot of these books because people have done work before me. I've drawn from that and tried to go to the next level.

GTN 22:55

All foot noted.

Dijanna 22:56

Yes. And there are some terrific books out there, but I don't think anyone's done it as visually. No. Or, or that consistently, like putting it in that context from 1929. Right. Every year through to That's true. Yeah. No one's ever done every year and been so yes. Consistent about the purpose behind what it is. I kind of wanted to to delve deeper because I think that fashion is an intellectual pursuit if you know how to, to approach it. Yeah. And, and a powerful one. And so I just want as many people as possible to understand it. Yeah.

GTN 23:28

And I love how it's all put into kind of social and cultural and historical context as well, and through, you know, effectively each year. Not that many words, but you managed to pack in so much information.

Dijanna 23:41

Too much.

GTN 23:41

Not too much. No, no, and fascinating little facts throughout the thing. So Cate's on board. Did she lead to Mr. Armani? Doing a piece?

Dijanna 23:48

No, actually that was separate. Um, no, because I don't, I was so thrilled that she was happy to write the forward that I just didn't wanna impose. So having been, head of Prada and Miu Miu PR in the past, I still had contacts in the game., and one of them was Sally Pitt at, Armani. But she got the ball rolling with Armani, and I didn't expect it to happen. Lo and behold, one day this fantastic letter arrived. So open and honest about how the red carpet and the Oscars has affected his career and what it means to him that, you know. And the same with Cate's, so generous in sharing memories of her as a child pretending to walk down the red carpet. I mean, so beautiful. These people are so generous Yeah. With their information and so open and honest and brave, I mean, it was a dream come true. So that's how those things happened and I think they really do set a tone for the book and, and really give people an insight as to the, the two sides that really rely on the red carpet at the moment. The actors that need to be there, whether they want to be or not, and the designers that, that use the red carpet to express more about who they are to a broader audience.

GTN 25:00

And of course, Giorgio Armani was so pivotal in the evolution of the red carpet into what it is today. So as we've discussed, you had this decade, these decades in the early days where it was the costume designers kind of designing for the stars. And then when that whole Hollywood system kind of breaks down and the new era begins, and you've got these young stars who want to express themselves more freely and they're out of the clutches of the studio. They're sort of fending for themselves.

Dijanna 25:29

Absolutely. And for the first time.

GTN 25:31

For the first time. And they, they were kind of the fun years in a sense.

Dijanna 25:34

I agree. Questionable.

GTN 25:37

But questionable. I love There was some really random things. Yes. That happened, which was great. And then Armani dresses Richard Gere for American Gigolo in 1980.

Dijanna 25:46

Iconic.

GTN 25:47

Iconic. And so then he's dressed by Armani for the Oscars.

Dijanna 25:52

The other interesting thing was Richard Gere wasn't supposed to be the star of American Gigolo, Mr. Armani thought he was dressing John Travolta. And at the last minute, for whatever reason, it was Richard Gear, which you can't imagine anybody else in that role. No, but I think the reason, and that was just the beginning really, it wasn't until sort of the late eighties, early nineties that Mr. Armani really came to the fore. And I think one of the reasons he was so successful was because he was a genuine film fan. So he didn't see them as mannequins for his clothing. He saw them as artists just like him. Right. And he really took into consideration, certainly around 1990, what did these artists want to portray? We just had this era of excess where stars were swallowed by their dresses.

GTN 26:40

How big were those shoulders, those puffs?

Dijanna 26:42

They so big and I, and I love them, but the stars got lost in them. Or you had the stars that were experimenting with their own designs. Demi Moore.

GTN 26:52

Can we have a moment with the Demi Moore?

Dijanna 26:54

Look, I look at that now and I think, yeah, you go girl. She had it going on. She had the pannier skirt happening cause that was, the Dangerous Liaison moment. However, she had the underwear as outerwear moment with the kind of the shorts and the, and the corset and she, and she owned it. I mean, I look at that picture of her and I think you look so happy. I'm, I'm happy too. You know. Then there's Kim Bassinger who had just finished dating Prince and That's right. But that dress was not influenced by Prince at all. And then Geena Davis. Mm-hmm. I mean, who would oscillate from best dressed to worst dressed to best dressed to worst dressed. But I mean, it was just, I love her so much, but I mean, these are the people that made the Oscar's red carpet Interesting for us. Yeah. And gave us something to talk about Totally. And gave us something to have an opinion about rather than just sort of, oh, yes, that's beautiful. Oh yes, that's beautiful. I mean, beautiful gets really tiresome and it starts to lose, you know, you lose personality, but along comes Mr. Armani and he says, okay, what do they really want? And, and there was a slew of serious actresses like Michelle Pfeiffer and Glenn Close who wanted to take their craft more seriously and not be sort of trussed up in these big gowns. They wanted to look chic, but be themselves, allow the actress to be seen rather than just what she was wearing. And he masterfully created this chic minimalism that made it look completely appropriate, but allowed the actress to shine from within and, and I think that's also when we really started to look at the actresses as people we wanted to get to know on a personal level as well. I mean, we were always interested, but you felt like you really were really seeing someone for the first time. And that was led by Mr. Armani. I mean, he certainly wasn't the first designer to dress an artist, however, he was the first one to really consider their needs rather than his own design needs

GTN 28:48

his agenda.

Dijanna 28:49

Yeah. And he, and he managed to marry the two really successfully and then changed the direction of red carpet dressing from that moment on.

GTN 28:57

And there was some other interesting things. So you had Armani, he had a point person basically, didn't he?

Dijanna 29:02

So Wanda McDaniel, she, she was a, a well connected person in Hollywood. He would choose who he wanted to dress and then she would approach them about dressing them. And, and this, there was no, um, uh, Payment or anything like that. It was just, would you like us to loan you a gown or give you a gown? Whatever the case may be, because he felt that they aligned with his aesthetic. And it was interesting cause Jodie Foster's first appearance when she won her first, best actress award and it was in that off the rack, pale blue ruched train, all sorts of things going on that really, again, masked the skill of the woman within. And it was Amani that reached out to her and said, allow us to help you do this better In the polite way, in the polite. And she went, please. And, and, and I like that, you know, when she was criticized for, for taking fashion so seriously, she said, it's my job to say that you can be smart and fashionable. Thank you, Jodie.

GTN 30:00

Thank you, Jodie. Yes, you can.

Dijanna 30:02

So, yeah, Mr. Armani was pivotal and, and it was his approach. It was the fact that he saw them as artists as equals, and he considered their needs as well as his own rather than before then most people just used them as mannequins.

GTN 30:14

And then at the same time as this is happening, the other, to my mind, most significant thing, which you cover in the book is... is Joan Rivers. Oh. And Fashion police, which becomes a Thing.

Dijanna 30:27

So Joan Rivers. Up until then, the press were very complimentary. Then Joan Rivers came along with her acid tongue and her super sharp wit, and she was attacking them. She was using them as comedy fodder, using the stars as comedy fodder. And the stars suddenly realized that, that these people weren't on their side. And so they started to worry about what they were wearing because they knew that they were targets now. They weren't being elevated, they were being targeted. And because of Joan River's, um, success and Melissa River's success, there was a whole slew of people coming out of the woodwork starting to become the red carpet critic. And so that kind of drove all the stars to professionals to seek help, to a, make sure that they were wearing something that was considered good taste b to make sure they weren't wearing something that somebody else was wearing. And this was the birth of the personal stylist. And, you know, the stylists had to make money too. So they started to broker deals between the fashion houses and the stars. And I, I need to stress that not all stars were paid to wear what some of them had developed a lot of with Armani. Um, Carolina Herrera developed genuine relationships with these designers and they honored those without payment, but it became acceptable. For now, stars to be paid to, to wear things. It did happen earlier in the piece, but it was far more discreet. Now the red cupboard became entirely commercial. Yeah. You know, and then that led to a decade in the two thousands with some exceptions. Like, thank you Bjork. You're amazing.

GTN 32:05

Oh, love. Oh, love the swan dress is one of, of my favorites.

Dijanna 32:07

It could have been a peacock dress. Which would've been just as fabulous. But then we had a decade of a parade of tasteful gowns. And how boring was that?

GTN 32:15

Consistently lovely.

Dijanna 32:16

There was nothing to say. No. Was standing around the water cooler going, okay. Yeah, that was good. That happened. And then 2010 comes and we move into a new decade and people start to experiment more. And designers start to experiment more and start to insist on a point of view and telling a story and so the fashion becomes a little edgier and a little bit more narrative based. And so again, we get excited.

GTN 32:40

And we, we touched on this earlier, but I wanna talk a little bit more about the kind of the politics coming to play in fashion. You mentioned Natalie Portman's cape that was embroidered with the female directors. You know, we had in the nineties we had the red ribbon, in solidarity with those living with HIV yes, yes. That wasn't the first time and certainly not the last time ribbons or pins have been used.

Dijanna 33:02

No, that's right. Well, the first one that I found that was deliberate was Robert De Niro in 1980, and he wore a green ribbon on his suit. And it was to draw attention to the fact that a lot of children were going missing in Philadelphia. And they were, and the police weren't, just weren't doing enough about it. And so he wanted to say, Hey, this is happening and we need to force the authorities because they were black children. I was gonna say they would be black children. Course they were black children. Yeah. And he was saying, it doesn't matter. We need to force the authorities to take this seriously, and we need to find out what's happening to these children and stop it. And so that the green was the first one. Then you got the red, and then I think there was a lavender one, and then all these other colors came. And I noticed that these moments of awareness or protests are really great when everybody's on board. The red ribbon was really potent because everybody jumped on board but then once other people started to do their thing and you had four or five different people protesting different things, All of their messages were lost. Yeah. So I think one thing to learn from that is that yes, it's great to have a message, but you need to make sure you're all unified in that message if you want the audience to hear it clearly.

GTN 34:16

And we saw the Times Up Pins a few years ago as well. So post #MeToo.

Dijanna 34:19

Yeah. So that year the Globes did, did Me Too, when everyone wore Black. And that continued through a lot of the awards season. So at the Academy Awards, the organization decided that we wouldn't do all black, cuz we didn't want it to become just a one-off trend thing that we would all wear different colors to talk about the fact that this is an issue that affects a whole slew of people, not just a certain type. And then I love that, you know, the godmother of protest, Jane Fonda...

GTN 34:48

god love her,

Dijanna 34:50

she's the best. She wore a. A, a white Roland Mouret clean slate, basically, and your eye was drawn to her black Times Up badge on her chest. So she really knew how to send a message to make a really big, bold message on one little tiny pin.

GTN 35:07

Oh, She's such a genius and one of the first women to wear trousers.

Dijanna 35:12

One of the first one, we'll call it, one of the first. I love this. She, because, you know, she came to fame as Barbarella. I don't think that's a bad thing.

GTN 35:21

I love that film.

Dijanna 35:23

I mean, how great did she look? If I looked like that, I'd be going to the corner shop in those outfits. Totally. I mean, beautiful. But of course, she didn't wanna be defined as a sex symbol. So after some years in France, she came back to America and won best actress for Klute. And she was an activist by this stage. Well, a, a prominent activist, I'm sure. She was always an activist, and she was protesting, specifically at this time, against the Vietnam War. And so rather than use the Academy Awards as a platform to protest from the podium, she wore an Yves Saint Laurent pant suit that was four years old. And that was in itself designed as part of a collection that was based on the Parisian riots against the Vietnam War. So it was so multi-layered. Yeah. But when you care, and this is the thing about, a lot of these outfits, if you care to look deeper, there's a deeper story to learn. But if you just want it to be pretty, it can be that too. And there's nothing wrong with that either. Like I said, it's really just about teaching people how to read these looks. And we use the Oscars as kind of the platform to, to tie the thread over the generations. But it's applicable to everything.

GTN 36:40

I think one of my other favorites was, this is so good, when Katharine Hepburn turned up in a gardening outfit.

Dijanna 36:47

Oh, do you know she'd won so many awards that she didn't bother turning up for, and then they asked her to present an award to a dear friend of hers. And so she said, yeah, I'll turn up. And she turns up in her gardening clogs and they had to spray paint the clogs because they were so dirty and then pin the jacket together. I mean, it just goes to show how irreverent she was. But you know, she was of a generation that felt that this was a tool for the studios and that she, she didn't feel like she needed their approval I think she said, my work is my reward. Yeah. And so she didn't need to fall for that. And people have different reactions to the Academy Awards. It's a necessary evil because it's a way for actors to showcase themselves to the world and also to push the films that are important to them. but then there are others who say it's just a race and it is that too. Every industry has parts of it that you don't love. Yeah. Um, so why not make the most of it? And that's what I find in the last sort of, well, maybe in the eighties and a bit in the nineties, and certainly now that people are saying, well, if I have to be here, I'm going to say something that's important to me.

GTN 37:58

And it's interesting when you talk about things that are important to people obviously, and, and industries and things. And you know, now the fashion industry is grappling with all issues of sustainability and Yeah. You know, we, there's this whole green carpet challenge Sure. Situation happening and people, you know, stars looking to be more considered about what they wear, whether they're, you know, Saoirse Ronan who did the Gucci in dead stock fabric that Yeah.

Dijanna 38:21

Yep, it was leftovers from a, another garment that had been made for her. Um, yes, I think it's a real issue. And I think that, it's so hard because red carpet's an opportunity to really go to town and live your fantasy, but at the same time, there is this guilt because of the fact that fashion has polluting the world. And I think. I think it is important to be more creative. I mean, as we know, Cate, rewore the entire season, certainly not the first person Jane Fonda in the seventies wore the same dress two years running. Shirley Maclaine another one I love. Yeah. Wore an Edith Head dress, twice, eight years apart. I think she was showing off quite frankly. I know whenever it was eight years apart, I went, oh, you're just, you're just proving a point. Yeah, that's exactly right. Uhhuh. So, um, I mean certainly people have done it before, but I think again it's consistency. That's really important. To do it once or twice the message is lost and, I spoke to Cate about this when I was in Los Angeles recently for Oscar week. And she said, well, you know, I don't wanna make a big deal about it because I'm certainly not the only person to do it. I said, just be, you are doing it consistently. And that's the hard part. And, and it's that consistency that makes us hear it. And, you know, Saoirse Ronan or whoever else Winona Ryder was an, was an early adopter of this sort of thing as well. I think the fact that they constantly do it makes it okay for us and for me I've said in the past that I'm more interested in seeing people wear the same thing different ways because we can all go out, you know, and buy five things, whether it's from Zara or I can't afford the luxury brands, but some people can. you know, it's easy to go and pick something pretty off the rack, but to make something part of who you are and then just tweak it to show different parts of your personality, well that's what true creativity and individualism is. And that's telling me more about who you are than just going and plucking something off the rack. So I think that's what's important is consistency. And I like that, um, people make these statements, but I just wish that they would commit to them long term.

GTN 40:24

You went over to LA during Oscar season and you went to the, what was the Time,

Dijanna 40:28

Time Woman of the Year. Wow. I mean, it was so great to be surrounded by so many inspiring women. I did the red carpet there and then there's a whole slew of events that lead up to Oscar night that are part of the campaign. And it was really interesting to see all of these events where all these celebrities are giving of their time for various causes, but they always have to be on. And how many people draw so much from them constantly. I mean, I, I'm in awe of, of the stamina and the generosity of these people because it's hard work. I mean, quite frankly, I rode in on coattails and I was exhausted, let alone having to be front and center and press palms and smile and make conversation and eye contact with hundreds of people a day. I'm in awe of this. You know, I think the acting part is the easy part. It's all the stuff you've got to do to get your film machine seen and it's just awful. So I, I hold these, these actors in such high esteem and it certainly the ones that are consistent cause they just never stop at all to practice a craft that's really important to them. Yeah. And which brings me to my theory about why some people are red carpet stayers. Oh yes. And why some people are not. And in researching the book from beginning to end, you tend to see that certain people consistently get attention. And certain people seem to pop up and pop out even though they're big stars as well. And I realize it's because the ones that consistently get attention they have attention to detail to every little bit of their outfit, which kind of reflects the attention to detail they have to their careers. So every time they wear something, it's deliberate. It's layered, it's intelligent, it's appropriate, it reflects them in some way rather than allowing someone to just choose something attractive and throw it on them. So I feel like the ones that are consistent are the ones that have attention to detail in this and every other aspect. Mm-hmm. Whereas the ones that allow others to dress them probably allow others to make other decisions in their career as well. Interesting. And that's why they don't have the staying power, cause they don't have that consistent thread that is their own. Interesting. That's my theory.

GTN 42:47

Oh, I like that theory. And aside from Cate, who would you say does that really well?

Dijanna 42:53

Really well? Well, I think Natalie Portman does it really well. I think that Janelle Monae is just. Really, and do you know what everything she wears has a point of view. She's someone whose outfits you can look at and really see something going on. I think Timothy Chalamet is doing it really, really well at the moment, he makes new statements seem so natural. Zendaya is very clever. Gosh. She's clever. and I really liked what she wore last year because it was a nod to Sharon Stone with the white shirt. The white shirt. Yeah. And the, and the long skirt. And the, these nods are super clever because, in acknowledging stars of the past by wearing something that visually denotes that you're creating a longevity in your own image. Mm-hmm. Suddenly she seems to be kind of more eternal than she is for a young person. Yeah. While at the same time she's tweaking it in a way that makes it feel fresh and appropriate for her generation as well. Um, so, so clever. And you see that occasionally, you'll see throughout the book you'll go, oh, that dress reminds me of this other dress 30 years ago. And, and that nod is a sign of respect, but it's also a way to attach a longevity to your own image. Interesting. Yeah. So I love that too. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of people doing interesting things. As we mentioned before, Jared Leto was always stepping out. I love that the men are stepping up. I think it's about time. Yeah. Oh, Totally. And I'm loving the skirts. And let me just say this. We've seen skirts on a lot of red carpets on men and sometimes like women, they do it well and sometimes they really don't. So just because it's a skirt on a man, we don't have to like it cause it's politically correct. Yeah. They're either wearing it well or they're not. And if they are good for them, absolutely. And if they're not, well your lucky Joan Rivers isn't around to tell you.

GTN 44:49

And I was really surprised I completely missed that Tim Chappel, yes, the Australian costume designer who won for Priscilla Queen of the Desert with Lizzie Gardner. Yep. Was wearing a skirt but was completely upstaged by Lizzie's American Express card dress.

Dijanna 45:05

Everyone was so bamboozled by the gold Amex dress that they didn't notice this man was wearing a skirt. I mean, how progressive was him, completely missed it. And I was thrilled to be able to point that out in the book. And there are a few, um, please don't ask me what they are right now, but there, there are quite a few moments in the book where I was like, yes, here is the attention that you deserved and hopefully people will notice. And that was one of them. And you can imagine poor him now going Well, I did that. 30 years ago. Oh God. So Tim Chappel, we salute you. High five.

GTN 45:44

Talking about people designing their own outfits. Yeah. A number of stars in the early days when people had skills such as these actually created their own.

Dijanna 45:53

So, Joanne Woodward. Oh, Joanne Woodward firstly isn't she heaven and married to Paul Newman. Hello. Just so unfair. Anyway, she, she made her own outfit. The fabric was super expensive, but she made it on her sewing machine at home and she looked beautiful. Emerald green dress with the matching opera coat, and, um, felt like the belle of the ball until Joan Crawford- and I'm not sure if I put this in the book. I mean, I could only fit so much into 400 and plus pages but Joan Crawford quipped that she had brought down the level of fashion by making her own dress so poor Joanne Woodward ended up in wood tears. That sucks. However, the next year Susan Haywood wore a dress very similar. So Joanne did something right? People were watching. And then the fabulous Joan Collins with her vacuum bag dress in hot pink love, uh, which she claims to have designed but didn't claim to make. So I'm not sure if she actually made it, but it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. It still, it was her expression. And I love skirt and she was kind of the naughty girl from, from London coming into Hollywood. And I love that she sort of wore something that was simple and sexy. But also she did it in the hot pink. You know, hot pink is a really interesting color from a color psychology point of view, because it's not as sweet as pale pink. It kind of goes into red territory without being as aggressive as red. So she's gone. Yeah, I can be sweet, but don't forget, I'm spicy as well by making it hot. So I really loved that moment. I think she was, she was pretty amazing. So yeah, people had a go. And then the fabulous Julie, Julie Christie. How good was that? Okay, so she changed everything. So the first, when she won best actress, she wore the gold lame pantsuit that she made in London with her friend. And that was before Jane Fonda and before Barbara Streisand. And, um, and so that was pretty special. I think that was 67. And then the following year in the off the rack High Street mini dress, and she managed to sneak past Edith Head who was making, because minis were not to be seen on television. And so she snuck past Edith head, who was quite petite in stature and was still fashion police at this point, and was still fashion police monitoring what everybody wore. But because she had that lectern in front of her, she didn't see the bottom half of the dress nodded Julie Christie on. And it wasn't until she heard the audience gasp that she looked up and realized that Julie Christie had snuck on stage in a mini dress and pretty much blasted Oscar red carpet etiquette out of the water, never to be seen again. And then was the catalyst for the mishmash that we saw in the seventies that was so brilliant on so many levels because it was genuine personal expression. I mean, it was that kind of youthquake moment where teens and young people really had independence they'd never had before in their lives and wanted to rebel against their parents. So the generation gap was, was quite, sort of quite deep. It was that moment that was the biggest seismic shift because with, they didn't want to be told and they went in their own direction and it was reflective of what was happening socially. It was reflective of them rebelling against the norms of their parents, the rules that their parents put in place, the segregation that their parents had lived with. Um, the fact that they were kind of expected to grow up and just be homemakers or providers. Now there were other options and the music scene influenced them more than ever before. So that, that was a pretty, uh, seismic shift on every level as well as fashion. And I feel like we're at a point now, where anything really does go. Mm-hmm. Anything really does go. So if there's ever been a moment to be truly yourself and very brave, this is it. Because although people might criticize you for it, there's going to be as many people who will stand up for you. Yeah. So I'm excited to see what's next.

GTN 50:16

Just before we finish what I kind of wanna go back and forth with you with the favorite outfits over the years .You start.

Dijanna 50:22

Okay. certainly Christian Dior on Marlene Dietrich 1951. I'm gonna say Nicole Kidman in the chartreuse embroidered Galliano 97. Yeah. Beautiful. Poor her, Joan Rivers. That was the moment that scared everybody. Joan Rivers literally mimicked vomiting and said it was the ugliest dress she'd ever seen. And that's what had everyone running scared. Let's talk Lauren Hutton in Halston. Oh, heaven. Yeah. Early seventies. The, the rainbow colored. Yep,

GTN 50:51

Cate Blanchett and Galliano for Dior 99 with the hummingbirds and everything embroidered down the back.

Dijanna 50:56

You know, she told me that was a love story. You look at the embroidery, it's a love story between the birds. And she was very involved in the design of that dress with John Galliano. Of course Cate Blanchett, everything she wore. But I will say that this year's Louis Vuitton with the blue velvet top. Yes. And the kind of liquid satin skirt. I just felt like it was, it was of the moment, but also harked back to the 1940s, maybe thirties Adrian silhouette that Hollywood was built on. Yeah. It was so beautiful. Your turn.

GTN 51:30

Marion Cotillard Gaultier 2008.

Dijanna 51:33

Yes. And somebody just wore something from that collection recently. So that, yeah. I love all these sort of nods and harking back. There's one dress that I really, really love that was in the 50s and it was...

GTN 51:48

Janice Rule?

Dijanna 51:49

Janice rule.

GTN 51:51

I've never seen this dress before. I mean, it's exquisite. So we've got like a central corset in sequin, and then it, it's strapless with pleated tulle. Pleated tulle ombre

Dijanna 52:03

So that's this like a midnight blue sequin corset. And I love how sharp the points are. It's like armor. Yeah. Up and down. And then Yeah, the ombre from blue to white. So, so beautiful. Exquisite. I mean, why do we not know more about her? Oh, Rosanna Arquette and Chanel 1991. Beautiful. It was amazing.

GTN 52:24

I love Dihann Carroll in the Scaasi dress in 1969, which is like, it's got that overlay, the sheer overlay she's presenting. It's got a very scooped bust, empire Line.

Dijanna 52:35

Dihann Carroll never got it wrong. I love this 1983 Sigourney Weaver in Norma Kamali moment because that, that was really the shape of things to come. Mm-hmm. The body con dress and also that cobalt blue and black, that was almost the color code of that decade. I thought Gwyneth Paltrow in Alexander McQueen got a, I think she got a bum steer. Not my favorite.

GTN 53:00

Do you know, this is why we love the Oscars, isn't it?

Dijanna 53:03

And, and also don't forget she got slammed for the sherbet pink Ralph. She did. Lauren did. So she did the absolute opposite. Yeah. She had a point to prove. And, and then, and then she comes back in Tom Ford in later years and completely nails it. I just like that she gives us something different. Oh, Martha Plimpton in the vintage. The vintage,

GTN 53:20

oh my God. Ivory vintage. It's like a thirties. Oh,

Dijanna 53:24

liquid satin. So this exquisite, this is 19 89 when she was dating River Phoenix. And one thing I'll point out in this picture, and I want you to have a look at other pictures when you go through the book again, is look who's in the background. Tom Cruise and Mimi Rogers his first wife wearing Valentino. Mm-hmm. And look at this kind of hangover from the eighties frou frou compared to this sleek minimalism that was brought in by Armani. This was a moment. Dresses. I wouldn't have said were my favorites became favorites because I knew the stories behind them. Isn't it interesting? Like that Yves Saint Laurent Pants suit that Jane Fonda wore. It was kind of utilitarian and, and stark and almost a bit mean. But because I know the story behind it, I'm like, yes, go for it. It means so much and it made such a statement. So I hope people are inspired by it. Yeah. And entertained and that every time they open the book, they learn something new.

GTN 54:19

Well, Deanna, thank you so much for joining me today. This has just been such a treat

Dijanna 54:23

it's always fun to see you. You know, I love you thank you. And it's my pleasure. Thank you so

GTN 54:27

much.

54:35

Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear your favorite Oscar's red carpet looks. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe or rate on your preferred platform, and don't forget to share with friends. See you next time.