I'm Glynis Trailnash, and welcome to In Fashion. Now, sometimes on this podcast, I'm interviewing people that I've never met before. And sometimes it's people I've crossed paths with in my line of work. And other times, such as today, I'm catching up with someone that I've had the very good fortune to get to know over many, many years. Wherever and whenever I catch up with Karen Walker, I always come away having learned something new, having had a good laugh, and I often come away with a reading list. Of course she is New Zealand's most globally renowned designer, but she's always so interested in the world beyond fashion, which is just so refreshing, and when we caught up in Sydney last week, she was still buzzed about having walked her first half marathon in Auckland a few days earlier. Yep. We apparently had quite a lot to discuss and many tangents to take, so I hope you enjoy this slightly longer than usual episode. Oh, and the book that she's referring to early on is The Animals in That Country by Laura Jean Mackay. Clearly, I'm going to have to add that one to my ever growing reading list. I'm trying to think how many years it's been since we've seen each other and we've slipped straight back into it, haven't we? You know, I think it was about two years ago in this very building. It was. We had a cocktail downstairs. Oh, that's right. That was great. Um, so it's very good to see you here in Sydney. Nice to be here. Nice to see you. Yeah. Now we were talking podcast downstairs and I always feel like whenever we catch up, I come away with a list, a list of things. Do I give you homework? You give me homework. How ghastly. I don't always get through it all, I'm going to say. But, um, there's always a list of podcasts and books and movies and TV and everything. What books are you on at the moment? I'm on that Australian one about where animals, they start to hear animals talking. Hmm. In our country? No. I've got them in my suitcase, I can pull it out. Everyone will know it, it won some big prize here. So a friend of mine recommended it to me and lent it to me. I always find the lending of books quite problematic. Do you give them back? Well I do, but it can take up to five years. So when people lend me a book, I say, I feel like you've just given me a task and I can't promise this will get back to you in any time. So you just have that responsibility on your shoulders. As long as you're aware. And they go ahead and lend it to me stupidly. But yeah, I know I had so many books in my, in the book piles that I'm thinking, Oh, I think you should have gone back to that person about five, eight years ago. And I don't lend books. I just give for that very reason. I don't want it. It's just easier. It's like, I think you'll love it. And if I don't want to lend it, then I don't. They can go and buy it themselves. And any good TV at the moment? Any good TV, yes. Um, what have I just enjoyed? I love, um, Only Murders in the Buildings. I just finished season four of that. Oh, I'm loving that one with, um, sasha Baron Cohen and Kate Blanchett. Oh my god, I was going to That's incredible. Isn't it? What's it called? Disclaimer. Disclaimer. I was actually going to bring this up, I have to say, because I was trawling the website, your website, the other day to see all the latest collections and things. And there's an outfit in Disclaimer that absolutely I just pounced on. So it's in that scene where she's back at the, that day when she's back at the office and she's wearing, I think it's like a burgundy cord flare and like a printed blouse and the knit top. There's a looser knit top goes over the shoulder line and I just thought that knit top is what I need. And do you have those? We have one. I'm glad we could help out. Yeah. She looks so chic. I'm so chic. And the house. Oh my God. And that's the downsize house. Yeah. That's the downsize house. texted my friend Katie Lockhart who's a designer and said, did you design the houses? You need to look at it. Because it's really good. It's insane. Oh, I know. So the final episode is tonight. Oh. Anyway, I have a feeling I know where this is going. But then no. Who knows? I haven't read, you know. Wow. How do we know that what was in the book is actually what happened? That's right. But why is she freaking out about it? She's acting like it's what happened. Yes. Kevin Kline! Oh! Psychopath! Psychopath? That's what happens to handsome men? And the wife's cardigan. And don't you love how his house and their house are the same footprint. Have you noticed that? It's the same layout. They are. Yeah. They are. And that beautiful boy who was in that Power of the Dog film. Great casting. Cody Smith McPhee, amazing. Amazing. I know, it's extraordinary. That's the last one tonight. God, I just, everything's gonna be turned on its head. Yeah, and God, Kate's fucking amazing. Just so gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah, I have, yeah, I have theories about why she's freaking out so much, but anyway, we'll get onto that later. Oh no, you've got my brain buzzing over that. I know, I know. So let me turn, out of, of all the things that pique your interest, because you, you have just such a, a, a phenomenal, um, appetite for learning and knowledge and everything and what's new and what's hot and all the, all of the things. Not so much what's new and what's hot, actually. What is that? Well, certainly a ferocious appetite for learning and knowledge and general curiosity, but there's, and to see good things. Yeah. And sometimes they might be new. Like I went to the Art Gallery of New South Wales yesterday, didn't even know there was a whole new wing or building. What's it called? The new bit? I can't remember what it's actually called. Sydney Modern. Sydney Modern. So I, I asked them at the desk whether Michael Perkoff, I, Cook was, because it wasn't in its normal spot. And he said, Oh, it's in the new building. Like what new building? So I tried it down there. I was like, Oh, that's quite gorgeous. Um, so yeah, I do like new things, but not in a kind of what's hot way. Yeah. Is there anything in fashion at the moment that's exciting you? It's kind of a tough one. I'm kind of a little underwhelmed at the moment with fashion, but anyway. Oh, no, look, I mean, there's always amazing things going on, you know, you look at the shows, you know, it's always something that kind of leaves your head spinning that somebody could make something so utterly gorgeous. Um, and, but, you know, with regard to fashion, I just, for me as a consumer, like not with my work hat on, just my consumer hat on, I like a uniform. Yeah. I like just good product that lasts and that does the job. I like a pair of Levi's jeans and a Breton t shirt and a pair of Birkenstocks. And I'm happy. Done. Yeah. I don't need to overcomplicate it particularly. I kind of set a uniform for myself each season, and it'll be high rotation for, I just did my change out of my wardrobe last weekend, and do my, and that's my high rotation for six months. Oh my god. So you do that for like a season. Yeah. I'm not quite David Beckham like with the rack, with the outfits. That was something. If I had the, if I had the money and do it. Yeah, right. Don't think I couldn't be. Wow. But, you know, I, I just like to not having to really think about it too much. I've just got, that's my, that's my little edit and it all goes together and it all, it all works and I don't have to overthink it in the morning. Yeah. Wow. You do that, that regularly though. That's impressive for a uniform. Cause I love the idea of uniform. Like, I'm just very much into the silk shirt and jeans and trainers at the moment because it's just easy and a blazer. Yeah. Um, yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Nice. Interesting. Now yours is a classic story. in fashion of 100, and in your case, a floral shirt. And here we are, 36 years later. 100 New Zealand dollars, I hasten to add. So more like 92. 50 Australian. And what? 58 US? So things have panned out pretty well. Could you have imagined? Yeah, things have panned out pretty well. Could you have imagined when you started, where it would have gone? No, no, no. God, no. God, no. New Zealand's most eminent designer, globally amazing designer. Oh, thank you very much. You polled my country folk. Uh, you know, I kind of don't, I never look that far ahead in business. You know, somebody at work recently asked a question and I sat down with my CFO and I said, someone's asked this question about like a three year. Vision on this. And I didn't quite know how to answer them. And even my CFO was like, you can't look that far ahead in business. You can look, you can have maybe some big intents, but you can't really plan more 12 months, so it's just moving under your feet all the time. Yeah. And I, I kind of agree with that. So yeah, there's some, yeah, you have your, your big dreams, but really we just focus on the, what's next, 12 months. Yeah. Right. We were just discussing before that the way you're sort of structuring the drops in the business at the moment is a bit different to what it was 10 years ago, five years ago even. What's the biggest shift I guess that people would notice? Oh yeah, we're really fluid with regard to, when product arrives in stores and, and we always start with its purpose. Um, And that's for if a product that we're, um, developing, designing, making ourselves, or it might be a product that we're buying in from another brand, we always start with, uh, at that time, what does our customer need? So we've just put to bed, for ready to wear, what we'll deliver in September, October, November 2025. So that's 12 months out more or less. So that's out in sales now. And our starting point for that was, what do people actually need in their wardrobe at that time? And, September, it's like, you know, spring, it's still a bit blah, it's still a bit windy, you know, New Zealand it certainly is. You know, you need some light knits, you need a good little light anorak, you need a sensible easy like things you can go walking and run errands in October It might be getting a little bit more touch of party a touch of this touch of that November it's full resort. So we just we never think about Oh, it's spring Yeah, you drop winter and in February or whatever all that nonsense that the people used to do I guess some people's dumb brands still do work like that We just think what is it our customer needs right now in this minute. And in February when. Traditionally stores might be dropping winter coats, but it's still like 35 degrees in the shade They don't need winter coats. I'll tell you that they're not thinking about winter coats in February They're thinking about okay, maybe something that's back to the office a little blazer a nice fresh pair of pants But it's but I ain't wool and you know, maybe you're not just a crisp update on the shirt or whatever, you know But we're really thinking about what does our customer need? Yeah, that's the starting point and then when all the collections now Oh gosh, the one that we're in sales with at the moment, which covers sort of a three month span, it's actually quite big, but it's kind of little, little capsules, little bite sized collections for different purposes. So, no, we're still, we're creating a lot of work. We are creating a lot of product, but, you know, we want to be able to take care of our customers kind of at every point in their day. Um, yeah, we don't do gym, gym clothes. We don't do red carpet particularly, but from, you know, walking the dog to running to the store to picking the kid up from school to going to work, you know, all those just like things that most of us do most of the time. Yeah. We have a point of view on how we can. help elevate that everyday moment. So really what we're thinking about every day when we're designing is elevating every day. Yeah. You need an anorak or a pair of jeans or whatever, but you want it just that, just a bit of fairy dust on it, please. We all need the fairy dust. Yeah. Yeah. And so would you drop it like every month now? Yeah, we have things going in probably two drops a month with ready to wear. I mean not, you know, thousands of styles, like it might only be 10, 10 things or five things that we're not, you know, Making tons and tons and tons of product. We're making very carefully thought product. But we drop it in one or two drops a month. So that the stores always feel fresh. It's really important to us that every time you walk past, it's, it feels a little bit different. And all our stores are, you know, neighbourhood stores. We've got four stores and they're all neighbourhood stores that you might find you've got the same person walking past two or three or four times a day, every day. It's on their route to work or to the bus or to the park. So we want that, that window in that store to be ever changing. So it feels exciting and enticing. And do you, I mean, I remember, oh look, we can totally go down a, a New York Fashion Week rabbit hole because you started doing that in 2006 and you were like really ahead of the curve there. I remember going over a lot. I'll take your word for it. That was 2006. I have, I have no idea, but I remember about 2008 that all the Aussies were there. Right? Like there was a massive influx. What made you wanna do New York? That was just where the people were. Yeah. And I like to be where the where the people are, whether it's in person or digitally or whatever. If you're talking, if you're trying to tell a story, you want to be presenting to an audience, not to an empty room. And New York was where, at that time, that was where the audience was that we wanted. Yeah. God, they were some fun shows. Some of my favorite memories at New York were, yeah. They were fun. And they were good. You know, we look back at that archive all the time. You know, when you've been designing at I think a high level for a long time, you've got a good archive. Yeah. So we're always dipping in you. You'll see that in our work now, where in fact, the, one of the prints that we showed in one of those shows, which was all, which was super popular at the time, we've not touched it since. And this season we've done, we've brought it out, we're doing it onto it like a silk visco in the same print, same color, and doing it in a fresh color on a, in a different way and. It would be, like 15 years old, 16 years old print. It's fantastic. It looks so fresh, so modern. So we're now, yeah, we can dig into our own archive now, like our pearl t shirt print, which we showed at Sydney Fashion Week in 2000. And we've done two or three releases since then. This, like a month or so ago, We released a little bundle of them, they were gone in 48 hours because they speak so strongly to people. So it is nice being able to dig into your own archive and kind of walk down memory lane in that way, in a way that's still sort of like, Oh, let's bring this out and how do we present that through, through the lens that we're looking through now and find that the work is good and good enough that you can do that. What are some of your favorite memories from New York of seeing you there? You're smiling Face backstage every season. no. That that was actually really that support from, from you and from others who are there every season. Getting the work, understanding the work. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Waving the flag for the work. You know, Tim Blanks would always be Front Road, be the first one backstage. Not just because he's a buddy, but because he respected the work and he got it. So I think that's, that was one of the things I really loved about it. When you're presenting work and your peers, who you have a respect for, get it and enjoy it. That's all you can ask for. And the same with your customers. When you go into the store or it gets presented to them the first day. In whatever way, Instagram, whatever, that they get it, and they respect it, and they like it, and it lights them up, and it's fun. Yeah. That's all I ask for. So you did ten years, New York, twenty seasons. I remember Eighteen, I was like, oh. I don't think we need to do this anymore. It's kind of not really where the energy needs to be spent, but 18s are weird. Let's just do another two, get it to 20. Nice even number. Yeah, I'm just going to just have a round number. But I so distinctly remember talking to you Whether it was in New York that last season or if it was just afterwards and you were like, no, we're done. We're done. Yeah, there's other things we can spend our marketing budget on that's gonna have a better impact. The world's changed. Yeah, I mean how and that's just because things do change all the time. Yeah, we did eight seasons, London, 20 seasons, New York. That was a really important part of the industry and of telling your story for a long time. There was the only way to do it. You couldn't do achieve what that achieved in any other way. And then you could. Yeah. And it's not, it doesn't mean we're working less or spending less. You're just doing it in a different way. Yeah. And, you know, I prefer this way of working. Is it more where it's like it's it's much more nimble? It's much, yeah. Get, get many more goes at telling the story. Yeah. It's not all hinging off this one big thing. We were, oh, I know we posted some video the other day that, um, but you can make, you know, like video assets, you know, you can make them so easily now and um, you just need to have a good idea and a good creative. Um, and if you don't have that, actually they're probably really hard. Luckily we've got a really good creative directive, um. Yeah, you were saying, you know, we've made this video, I can't even remember what it was now, because we're posting stuff like that every day, and you said, you know, back in the day, you would have posted this and that would have been like, yeah, your marketing for a month. And now it's like, oh, now it's our marketing now for maybe four hours? Yeah. Yeah, it's just lots, but it's got to, you know, all killer, no filler. It's all got to be good. Don't take anybody for, anybody's eyeballs or thumbs for granted. Yeah. It's all got to be good. But you've just got to be telling so many stories at the same time, concurrently, and, uh, in different ways. It's really, it's much more fun, I find, than like, ooh, that big show, and the lead up to the show, and the show, and the post show, and the I just remember, I think when I knew that it was no longer relevant was when, uh, We'd shown, like, we'd shown a winter collection, let's say, I don't know whether it was winter or summer, we'd shown a winter collection. And, yeah, then you'd go backstage, there's like 50 media lined up to ask you questions about it. And this one interviewer said, so we've just shown winter. And she go, which wasn't even going to be in store for another six months. And her question was, what are you thinking about for summer? I fuck's that? This is so stupid. And I think that was the moment I was like, uh, done. We are done. This is ridiculous. Oh my god. Do you still, there's always such, and you still talk obviously about storytelling. Um, the shows and the, collections when they were those seasonal collections, they always had such a strong narrative. And I always, I always loved that gardening, the gardening lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah. do you still approach design in that sense or are they smaller stories now? Yeah, we do still, uh, have stories and a single thought that sort of wraps up a, you know, two or three months of work. There's still a narrative. We still love to have something that we can dig into for inspiration and, and, um, and wrap a feeling around. Um, but sometimes our audience might not even know what that is. Sometimes it's just for us as designers to go, that's the mood we're trying to, to capture here. And then that, you know, that helps you set the prints, the colors, the graphics, the details, all that kind of stuff. Um, but other times it can just be like a little sort of, little bug. Bolt of lightning just coming from the side for no reason like we just did these cat lady t shirts Thank you. Thank you. We've just done a second job with them actually good Now more than ever Our creative director was just so outraged by those t shirts Disgusting GULs in American politics. Yeah. And the cat lady comment that he just wanted to pull the power back on that. Yeah. Good. And I appreciate that. Thank him for, he sat I shell and he sat down with his iPad four hours later. He wasn't even remember what he was working on. He just, four hours. He goes, what do you think of this? Anyway, but also you can take it outside of American politics and just go, I am also a cat lady. So that's, I'm totally down. There might be one coming for the dog mum. Just saying. But you know, those, there's, we can do that now, you know, that, that ability to be like, think fast. Yeah. Think on your toes. Turn it around. Have the idea. Do the creative. Turn it around. Photograph it. Two weeks. Yeah. And I love that, that that being just lead the, the flexibility and the You can, yes, you can work. Like for some projects we're working like eyewear at the moment. I think we are working on august, 2026. like that. A long way out, a long way out. And other things we're working on like, oh, we can turn this around for next week. Let's do it. It's a bit of a hustle, but there's a reason we want to do that. And it's that elasticity of time that I really enjoy. And couple that with the flexibility of the smorgasbord of marketing tools and storytelling tools we have from doing something, selling on Instagram beautifully, crafted, studio image to, uh, to the Clear cut to a user generated something, unboxing, you know, there's dozens and dozens and dozens of ways that we can tell our stories. Coupled with the flexibility of the product going in. Coupled with our, you know, talent and thought and creativity. Because without that, none of it has any purpose or is of any use. It's a dance. I love it. A happy dance. It's so much easier than it, I mean it's harder but it's easier, you know, it's just like, the flexibility. Yeah. I mean, it still astounds me, the way that, you know, the fashion machine, the industry still operates in this incredibly kind of rigid, seemingly archaic kind of way today. Do you feel happier running your own race? Oh yeah. Playing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. My, I have a good analogy for that my yoga teacher shared with me and it really stuck with me. She said, don't chase the horse around the paddock with a bridle, stand in the middle of the paddock with a carrot. And that's how I think of it. Like that's that old school fashion thing of, Oh, the seasons of this and the sales of that and the, I think I'll just have a really great carrot that, and if you like it. Great, here it is. And if you don't, that's great as well. I'm not chasing anybody. You know, I just present good product. And if people, if it fits with people, fantastic. And if it doesn't, I understand. Yeah. I just love that idea of running your own race though. I just, it's so much fun. You always come first. And last. Oh my god, that's so good. Now when you, when you think of customers, who is, what is the characteristic or attitude of those customers that you have in mind? Because I imagine, I don't know, I imagine you approach it more in that sense than like, oh yeah, we like this young cool girl or we like this. I think it's an attitude for you. Oh, it's always, it's always been psychographic for us. It's never been like the, it's never been the, she's 18 to 25 and she writes, Michele always makes fun of it. She rides through Paris with the basket of flowers, listening to the Ramones. That's never been starting point is just everyday people who want to elevate their lives a little bit, have a little bit of spark, a little bit of fairy dust on their everyday product and have some fun. Yeah. But also want great product. I don't know. I don't care what age they are. Yeah. I don't care what they look like, where they come from. If they relate, they relate. Exactly. But it was so good, actually, because I was looking, when I was looking through everything, You go, Okay. Yeah, I would wear that. A 22 year old would wear that. You, yeah, there's so much cross generational appeal in what you're offering. Is that a deliberate thing or is that just the way, the way it lands? No, that's not worked out in a boardroom. That's just the way it lands. We just make good product that we think is good. Yeah. That will, you know, Last, because it's well made and well designed, that will, uh, do it's job, make you feel better as you're running about doing your errands and picking up the kids or going to work or whatever. And yes, uh, some of our customers might be 13 and some of them might be 93 and everybody in between. And we do a really broad sizing too. A lot of our product, we go from four to 18 Mm-Hmm. So it's really, I know. Is demogra, is um, democratic the right word to describe that? Probably not. No. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. It's quite, it's, it's, we try to be available to everybody. Yeah. And our, and our price point's quite different to what it was once upon a time as well, because we've. Change the way in which we work in that regard. So something's still yeah. Yeah, a lot of it There's a lot of people might say 110 for a t shirt. Yes. Yes, you can think that but you can buy a t shirt for 2 Yeah, there's a problem, but it's not fair trade. It's not organic It's bloody blah and it's maybe not might fit you so well It won't last for forever unless you spill your coffee down the front of it like I did the other day Brand new t shirt so yeah, yeah, we We try to be really available to everybody. Um, and you know, I was out the other day and a lady came up to me and started talking to me about this particular pair of jeans we had. And she said, I'm 90. I was like, you are not, you look about 60, but okay. If you insist. If you insist that you're 90. And I thought, that's awesome. She just came up to me and said, I love the, and yeah, she knew the style name and she had them on, she looked great. And then. Turn around, there's some girl who's got a piece of jewellery for her 16th birthday, and she's loving it. My daughter's 16. She asked for a runaway girl for her birthday. I'm like, I think I could probably get you one of those. You mentioned runaway, I do want to ask, The kind of history of Runaway, because I love how on the website she's the little character. So you've got the little character. I learnt a new word yesterday. Bindle. Yes. That's what she carries. Yes. Which is the little stick with the scar. And her belongings is the stick and the bindle is the cloth. Gotcha. I'd never heard that word before. There you go. I love a new word. Yes. So anyway, the runaway, and she's, so, she's, she's got a head forward and nose up in the air and she, she's got a little bindle over her shoulder and Yes. Um, stick over her shoulder and, and she's looking forward and she's adventurous and yes. What. She's full of moxie. Moxie! Which is a great word, isn't it? Dusted off from the 20s. It feels like that. Yeah. Um, what was the genesis of the Runaway Girl? Because I believe Mikhail drew, Mikhail, our CD. He created her. We were doing a show at London Fashion Week. It was our first show at London Fashion Week. Um, and it was called Runaway. And it was this kind of, um, escape into the woods, kind of sissy space like Badlands kind of, kind of mood. Right? So it's This girl going, escaping on an adventure and, we had these sort of jungly prints and we had a map print, like a big grown up map. We'd found an old, like in a vintage store, a t shirt with a map, like, I think it was Idaho. It had Idaho printed across the front. It was on this sort of big map and we kind of took the map print and got rid of the Idaho bit and made these big oversized t shirts, And had them with little shorty, shorty running shorts and knee length socks and black Louis Vuittons and a big truck of caps. It was a really great show. I look back on those pictures now, it was really, it was really fresh. Anyway, so we had this giant T shirt and Michael goes, I think I need some sort of big, like a big graphic on it. And he goes, I've, oh, he goes, I think I've got an idea, just give me half an hour and let me just sort of play around with it. So I went off and did something else, came back in, these just like freehand pen, this was before iPads. Zeta pads, we used to just do everything on zeta pads with black markers, like, so many trays. And he'd drawn this little girl, like she emerged fully formed. Wow. And I'm like, that's pretty good. So he put it on a t shirt, like really big on this big oversized, sort of hip hop sized t shirt. And, uh, And then we put her on the side of the socks and the trucker caps, and then we did this like big oversized medallion, like sort of 10, 12 centimeter big medallion with her covered in like, um, yeah, faux crystals. Um, and it was really good. And it just kind of stuck. Stuck. Like, it just connected. So she's like 22 or 23 or something like that. Oh my god, amazing. And, um, On jewellery and all sorts of things too. Yeah, she's, and, yeah, we don't pimp her out onto anything. We're careful with her. We really, we treat her with respect. Yeah. Hold her up on a pedestal and we, we only put her where she wants to go. Yeah. You know? Um, and she just connects. Mm. You know, we've had, I can't count the number of times, the number of people who've emailed asking for high res so they can get her tattooed. No. I was going to, I was going to ask that. Say you must have loyal fans, but that really. But some of them, well, you know, some of them are, some of them, when they, usually when they're asking for that, it's not because they're an Uber fan. It's just because she speaks to them. Right. Yep. And. Sometimes we do check, like, oh, it's a V. I. C. maybe, but usually they're not. It's just because she speaks to them. And then our arrow that you see in other places, like on the temples of our sunglasses and other places, jewellery and other places, it's the same thing. It's just a graphic interpretation of it. It's like a forward with purpose and energy and curiosity. Yeah. Is really what it stands for. And none of that was planned out in a boardroom. That's just like, Oh, it feels like, feels good. Feels right for us. Let's just do that. Yeah. And, and it's kind of stuck. And I guess the starting the business with 92. 50 Australia and just a bunch of energy and enthusiasm and naivety, it's kind of the same thing again. Yeah. Now we, of course we must talk about eyewear because it is such a, it is such a phenomenon Yeah. Karen Walker Eyewear. I mean, and the brand was already, hugely successful when you launched Eyewear. It's 20 years. Yes. This year. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what made you want to do eyewear? Was it the missing piece? It was, it was, it was, no, it wasn't, not that it was the missing piece of the puzzle for us in terms of what we made, but we saw that there was a missing piece of the puzzle for the market, for the customer. So it's the same thing, what does the customer need? And, um, yeah, we've kind of done this with jewellery already. There's a really wonderful family owned, established jewellery company. It started over a hundred years ago, or about a hundred years ago, approached us in New Zealand and said, would you make fine jewelry? Like they'd seen our little, our runaway girl, I think, hang on, that would make, that would look really good in fine jewelry, not just like whatever we'd made it in for the show. And we looked around the jewelry market and thought jewelry was kind of like either really highfalutin and, you know, oh, save it, you know, save your Nana's pearls for that one night in the five years you might go to the opera. Yeah. Or kind of trashy. Yeah. And there was nothing in between. There was no like everyday fine jewelry, you know, take out coffee. So we were really the first ones in our market for sure. Touching in that. I mean now it's like, who, who hasn't got Yeah. Their foot in that, in that pond. But that was the first time that it ever happened. And I remember you had a taxidermied mouse in the first campaign. We have a taxidermied mouse. Yes. And a taxidermied raven as well. and then we were approached by a Sydney company, um, a little while after that, who really liked what we were doing and, and said, would you consider doing an eyewear range with us? Um, and we looked around the eyewear and thought even, the really great fashion brands, the really, the greats, their eyewear was really boring. It just kind of looked like, uh, generic eyewear and stick a badge on it. Yeah. And, which was kind of surprising, because, like, the great houses with great designers, like, and the eyewear, you know, the eyewear all just looked really dull and kind of, um, insipid, you know? No moxie. No. And, we thought, yeah, we've got a point of view on eyewear, why shouldn't it be fun? They were like, oh, okay, yep, we'll just, yep, okay. They weren't anticipating how much fun we'd have. They had no idea quite how much fun was about to hit them. And, um, yeah, then it became a thing. And we have We always have fun. Yeah, we, and again, now we're at a point now where we look back at our own archive on that. And sometimes we're looking back at product that didn't even go to market that was developed, but it's like parked or you're like, Oh, it's really good. All it needs is this and this and it's there. Yeah. And of course, now you look at the, at the big houses and the, and they're, they're all doing amazing eyewear. And there's lots of like, there's sort of little, you know, indie eyewear brands have come out since we. Did I wear and, and plenty of the big luxury houses also doing correct copies of our campaigns. not naming names, but you know, I've seen quite a few who have done dogs and dictators and vampires and elderly ladies and all that. Well, that's the thing. I mean, your campaign, find your own, find your own ideas, guys. But your campaigns were so groundbreaking in the eyewear space for talk just generally, but I mean you, and further to your thirst for knowledge and what's. Available at our disposal now. Like, we're all talking about age positivity now. Yes. You did the advanced style ladies, Ari Seth Cohen's from his blog. How long ago was that, like 12 years ago, something like that? Uh, 2013. Yeah. Twenty third time. Eleven years ago. And Toast. Toast. The king of Charles Cavaliers. Yeah. Spaniel with the lopsided tongue. Oh. The tongue wasn't lopsided. It just always hung out. Because he had no teeth. No. To hold it in. Yeah. And then you were working with micro artisans in Kenya. Yeah. I mean, then, of course, you did your own Cindy Sherman. Yes. Transformers. Yes. That's right. After I'd had dinner with Cindy Sherman. Oh, let's just drop a few names in, shall we? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's a thought. That was, that was one, it took a little bit of talking, it took a little bit of talking, of talking me into that one. I loved the idea of one model, ten looks. So, our creative director, Mikhail, had this idea and then he, he ran it by our, eyewear, designer. And, They both, so they were both on board. And then they sat me down and said, We've got this idea to pitch to you. And they, once they model 10 different looks, we'll shoot it in L. A. with blah de blah. And I'm like, Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah, sounds great. And they're like, Oh, it's you, it's you. And I'm like, I love it. What? So that took, um, it took a bit of talking me into that one, but actually the images were fantastic. I mean the results were fantastic. The images were amazing. Because I loved the, uh, that fantastic red wig. Yeah, the red wig. And then the country. Oh my god, the country. The country wig, yeah. You still got that wig too. Oh my god. I liked the really short bob. There were some really good dress up parties. Yeah, there were some great looks in there. Yeah. So, yes, we, we, um, always really. Pushed it. Well, again, it was pushing against the, the norm. It was like when we looked, when we were first working on the eyewear, we looked at the imagery out there and just, yeah, just as most of the product out there was this really bland, the imagery was generally kind of a sweaty looking girl on a boat, looking dopey. I was like In a bikini? Yeah, in a bikini, and we're like Yeah, not our girl. Um, what we'll do is the opposite of that. Find me an old lady right now. Oh, which you then followed up with toddlers, which was hilarious. With toddlers, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, what, I'm curious But you know, it's never, we have never shown it, shown the eyewear on some dewy skinned, vacant eyed sixteen year old model. No. And a bikini. Now I'm saying it, we're going to have to. She would never do that well in this space, actually, when you least expect it. I mean, that's the thing that I'm really curious about. I mean, I guess from some marketeer's kind of point of view, to have that level of the unexpected thrown around all the time would be very discombobulating and completely at odds with good business practice. How do you make the unexpected and that element of surprise part of your DNA? If I can say that. Well, just authentically. Yeah. You know, our DNA wasn't created in a boardroom. It came from me and our creative director, Mikhail, my husband, just going with what felt like fun and felt right and felt exciting. And our audience reacting. Um, and which was grown from there and 30 whatever years later, the DNA has still not been written down. Some of my team said recently, have you got a brand book? The brand book is the, is the, is the instinct and the gut. It's the gut and the brain. Um, so no. And I thought, you know, I'll take that challenge. So we had a go and we, we wrote it down. Really? And that was quite interesting. How did it go? It took a long time. I bet. But it's good. I put, the words are done. We're just now going to make it look, look good. Um, but that was quite an interesting and challenging project for me, the writing down, the writing down of it. Yeah, because I've been privy to some of these copywriting wise lately, only lately. And so it's been fascinating to me. And actually, when I was, um, you know, doing my research also ahead of today, like I was looking at some of the ways you've been, your work's been described. And there was, I think, I think you, there was an interview where you said that the Times in London. called you elegant and eccentric, where there was someone in Japan that said you had just the right amount of poison. Yeah, just the right amount of poison. learned out of wrong. And I also like, it was the times when somebody said, we're the, for the anti it girl. And I always loved that. That's good. So what sort of in your brand book, you're not giving away too many secrets. What sort of words have you thrown around? Oh, you know, it's so many months since I've looked at it, I wouldn't be able to give you one off the top of my head. Probably Moxie's in there. I would hope so. Enthusiasm, energy, optimism. Yeah, nice. Intrepidity, because I like that. Intrepidity, yeah. On your website too. Because she is intrepid. Runaway. She just keeps going. I love the idea that after 36 years you finally decided to, you better write it down What if one of us got hit by a bus? Oh God. Um, no, I think, I think the team. Uh, who are in there running the business with us every day. Um, also have that instinct. But there is, I guess there is a responsibility beyond that to the business to have it written down. It was quite an exercise. It was kind of like going away, I had to go away and journal for a couple of nights to kind of get my head around what it even all meant. Oh my god, that's so gold. Um, how important is it for you to operate outside of your comfort zone? And was it more of a thing earlier or was it, is it still a thing? No, I think you always have to have, you know, I don't know, 5 percent out of your comfort zone or else you just get stuck and end up going backwards. 5 10 percent I think is kind of the plain money kind of, you know, if it, if it's all just total disaster, that's fine, it's not, it's not catastrophic, but you do need, you do need to be a bit out of your comfort zone. In the, not just in the creative industry. It's ridiculous. In business, in life, you know, just as a, as a human, continuing your development. Yeah. As a human being. Evolving should always be a little bit out of your comfort zone. Like you learning how to work tech, That's been quite the Yeah. Getting there. Getting there. Me walking the half marathon. I know, right? Gotta keep throwing challenges in your That's right. In your path. That's right. And I think it's the same for individuals, businesses, governments. Let's not, shall we? I don't know. Yes, it's been a rough week, hasn't it? It has been a rough week. It has been a very rough week. Breathe. Breathe. Um, now collaborations. Yes. You've loved a collaboration I love a collaboration. I still have my blunt umbrella, which is one of my favorites. Which one? You've done about ten. Well, I have, yeah, exactly. Mine's probably about five years old, actually. Oh, it's just a navy and white one. Oh, yes. With the white flowers on it. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. You know, they do free repairs for life. I met the founder, actually. I didn't realise they did the free repairs, but I had lunch with him not long ago. Ah, did you? Very, very interesting guy. Very interesting guy. Great brand. Fantastic product. Um, why do you like collaborations so much? I always say with a collaboration, one plus one equals three. Mm. You should create something bigger than the sum of its parts, and each party should bring to the table something that only they can bring. So with Blunt, for instance. We were thinking our customer needs an umbrella in their bag, car, bat, you know, holiday home, whatever. And we think we can make kind of a pretty cute little umbrella. But in terms of the structure, like we're not going to start inventing an umbrella. And then we thought, hang on, we've got the, literally the best umbrella in the world. The company is based right here in Auckland. Um, and we kind of know them. So let's see if we can do something with them. So, you know, Blunt Umbrella, the best umbrella in the world. They are. Like it can withstand a hundred and thirty I think kilometer an hour wind, something like, something like that. Great guys, great product, like the perfect product really. You don't often get that, like perfect product. So every winter a fresh blunder. In fact, next winter there might be two. Um, so, you know, if we just keep going back, because one, we like them. Two, the product's unbeatable. Um, and we can create one plus one, um, coming up to three. We work together. And it's the same with all our co labs. We've got Papanel at the moment. Yeah, Papanel. We're just in our fifth or sixth season with Papanel. We're working on next, um, next Christmas now. And so, yeah, they do a great pajama. We do, yeah, there's a lot we've done again and again, like Papanel six years. I think, blunt, 10 years, I think, um, and others where it's quite new, like we've just done one, a second one with Rise Beyond the Reef, which was a Fijian organization who work with women in remote communities in Fiji. So we're using the skill sets that they have within their villages and, and that's slightly tweaked with a designer's eyes. So this is their first time they've done a CoLab, I think, and, so we've just done Two different types and four different styles of bag. I've got one here actually Using the craft that's native to the community and then we just bring out a little bit of magic to it So I was up in Fiji last month and met some of the women who make the bags went out in a four hour drive out into the way out into the country and saw The who, the where and, and the why, because it's all about empowering those women. Yeah. How do you, how do you connect with them in the first place? That was an approach to us, I think, you know, sometimes a company or a brand will reach out to us and say, would you consider? And other times we say, what we really need for what our customer is really needing is XYZ. And then we go out and find a company that we think will be a good partner on them. And sometimes it's, you know, like we do Wellington Chocolate Factory, gorgeous with letters and old chocolates. chocolate company in Wellington who we've done seven or eight seasons with. Oh shit, I should've brought one for you. Sorry. Sorry, your eyes lit up. So, so, so hugely then and now I'm talking about chocolate but I don't even have one to give you. I do, probably next time I see you. Torture. Torture. Um, so that'll be, um, like we'll do our own flavor and beautiful packaging and this season's packaging goes back with our, with our, um, collab with Peace House, um, uh, And so we've got a matching, your chocolate matches your, your, this crazy cat. I'll show, I'll put it up on the website. That's like the perfect gift, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, talk about cat ladies. So you got your chocolate with the cat on it, you got your jigsaw with the cat on it, and then we've done Acme Mugs, which is fantastic. I'm sure they're everywhere here, but they're a Wellington based company, beautiful. So we've done matching colors with them. That's our third or fourth season with them. And so it's just like, what does our customer need? Well, for Christmas, they need a batch. What do you call it? Holiday home. Holiday, yep. Um, with a, they need a jigsaw puzzle for the holiday home, because it's going to be raining because it's New Zealand. And you need chocolate, because you always need chocolate. And nice coffee cups. But also, you know, it's like, but our customers, the chocolate came about because our customers would come in and they'd be, you know, buying things for themselves and they'd go, Oh, got to do stupid secret Santa for work or home or whatever. And, and what, you know, can't spend more than 25. And we were thinking, Well, maybe we can help, like, let's figure what we can do that's really great for that secret Santa piano teacher price point. So that's why we started doing the chocolates, plus it's really great chocolate. And so our customers really love that because they can get something really nice for like 18. 50 or whatever it is. Better than a box of Quality Street. That's better than a box of Quality Street, as we still want to elevate that every day. So that's, that's really our purpose. What can we do? What does our customer need? And how do we do it better? How's the, how is the, um, taste development? Yeah, don't tell the guys at Wellington Chocolate Factory that we, we sometimes go back unnecessarily. Like, we know we've got it, but we sometimes go back and go, Oh, can we just try it for a little less this, a little more raspberry and a little less, you know. We really think we have another go. We just needed to be sure. There might be a sneaky little bit of that because a few of us in the design room, What sort of chocolate? Like, are you a dark chocolate or a milk chocolate? This here is, it's a locally grown hazelnuts. I think they're grown near Nelson. Coated in milk chocolate. It's all organic. Beautiful, beautiful quality chocolate. Infused with rose and coated in freeze dried raspberries. It's pretty amazing. Oh. I'm so embarrassed I didn't bring you some. Oh, I'm so upset. Do you like a jigsaw puzzle? Love a jigsaw puzzle. Oh, okay. Well, there'll be a care package. Oh my god, we have yapped on for so long which is fantastic because it's been too long between visits. Oh, we don't, well we don't do three year plans for the business. We don't do, we, we, we do a solid 12 months. 12 months. A rolling 12 months. We don't wait until the end of the 12 months and then think about it. It's like a rolling, like, ongoing, there's always a 12 month vision. So what's, what's the next 12 months looking like the next 12 months, there are a few big things. You know, writing out the economic cycle first. We're bidding and we've decided to, um, replace nine pieces of our software stack with two. That all happens in February. So that's a complete nightmare. That's only like a year's project. And big stuff like stock and management, POS. Just all those really big painful ones that you just don't want to mess up. So our team have been doing an amazing job on that. So that's kind of one really big focus. And then, oh, there's a few, a few other big exciting things happening. Much more exciting than tech that I can't reveal here. Your customers, your, your audience really tune in to hear about Karen Walker's tech problems. Tell me more about Shopify. Oh, man. And I did, I did also read somewhere that, this is a while ago, someone asked you in an interview, What dream do you want to fulfill? And you said God, what should I say? You said a year off. Oh yeah, a year off is still good. Is there any, any, any closer to that? I think I, I think I am a little closer to that. Yeah, I think, yeah. That, yes, that is the dream. There's a lot of galleries in Western Europe I've not visited yet. Karen, it has been Hey, you've scored a jigsaw. I've scored a jigsaw, yes! it's been an absolute treat. Thanks. It's always a treat to see you. Oh. You're always a delight. Oh, says she. And love spending time with you. We don't get to do enough. We don't, so I've got to get to New Zealand sometime in the next I think you do. Yeah, don't I? You do? It's been a while. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's do that. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends and on social media and rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. You can get in touch via Instagram at infashion underscore podcast. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.