0:06

Hi, I'm Glynis Trailnash and welcome to InFashion. Hopefully you've already listened to part one of this episode with Steve Bennett. If not, to bring you up to speed, Steve is the founder of the iconic Australian brand, Country Road. In the previous instalment, we had a great chat about the early years of the brand, and also touched on some of his projects after leaving, including the Melbourne department store, George's. Although that project only lasted for a year, and you'll hear more of why in this episode, it did introduce him to Joe Horgan, the founder of Australian cosmetics company, Mecca. So in this episode, which was recorded at MECA's headquarters in Melbourne, we have the great treat of bringing Jo and Steve together to discuss their ongoing friendship and working relationship. Steve showed me the diary entry of his first meeting with Jo and her husband Peter Wettenal, and there is much discussion of the new Bourke Street flagship store in Melbourne, which is due to open this year. So without further ado, let's jump straight in.

GTN 1:18

Joe, thank you for joining us. How very exciting I'm getting all the visuals.

Jo 1:23

There's nothing I'd rather than be with you and Stevie Bennett for a talk a thon about life, retail, art. Customers, the future, colour, texture, movement,

GTN 1:35

all of it. Now Jo,

Steve 1:37

This is an entry. Steve has

GTN 1:38

something very interesting here.

Steve 1:40

With all my terrible writing. Because Jo is the most beautiful. She keeps it dry. What year is this? This is 1997, July the 8th. Eight's my lucky number. There you go. And I think I was wearing red socks. Cause that is apparently

Jo 1:57

Oh, red socks. We buy Stevie red socks. Cause it's great energy through the Chinese calendar. I told you that once. And so that's been his present ever since. Yeah, I've got

Steve 2:05

red so there we are Jo, that was that date. We met. First time we met in this What year is this? Joe comes bouncing in, as we just saw, with beautiful Pete. And I'd been rung by one of the investors in, in George's, who was also an initial investor in Joe's business. The investor rang me and said, look, one of my senior guys in the company, he and his wife have come up with this concept of, this cosmetic concept, and he said, quite honestly, I don't understand it. And I said, he said, would you be interested to look at it? Because at that point in doing Georges, the last thing I wanted was the front of the store full of. Ladies, uh, squirting everyone with perfume, which was the department store concept. So it was meant to be a, an experience. Anyway, to cut a long story short, Jo bounces in with her three color boards to show me this fabulous concept. Well, as soon as she walked in the door, I said, it's over. We're going to do it. And she said, Bill, I haven't, I haven't taken you through the concept. I said, I really get it Jo. It's, it is a no brainer. And I want to put it at the front of the store.

Jo 3:24

And Stevie was the very first person to immediately get it. Up until that point, there had been resistance, every twist and turn. People in the industry saying, you might get one up in Melbourne, one up in Sydney, but there is no mass interest or uptake opportunity with this. And others going, this is just not a retail concept at all that's going to work. And others going, trying to get consumers to change the way that they experience cosmetics. That is just going to be such a hard, hard slog. And you're doing it in two ways. You're trying to change the retail experience and you're trying to change the brands. What are you thinking? And literally it had been like wading through just negative treacle every single step of the way. And then there was this, sort of burst of positive energy with the red socks sort of, you know, fueling it all when I went to see Stevie. And he did. He immediately got it, and I started to try and explain that, you know, he wasn't going to be behind cams. He'd go, Oh, brilliant, I've got it. I talked to him about the brands, and he knew the brands, and he'd seen, you know, some of the brands overseas. And so from that very first moment, it felt like an intellectual, sort of a retail. Mind. Waltz. right?

Steve 4:50

No, it was

GTN 4:51

Mind wa I love that. That's a great book title or something. So we had, we had

Steve 4:56

some highs and we had some lows, but, the number one thing was that Joe was able to get, her concept opened up in December that year. Mm-hmm Gorgeous shop in Turok Road, South

GTN 5:09

York. So that was literally before that was open? Yeah. Okay. I can't

Jo 5:14

open, I can't open with you if I don't have a stand alone store because from a branding perspective we have to own the concept. And I think Stevie was going, oh that is just a really annoying spoke in my bloody wheel that I do not need. No. So he then organized, there was this. This tiny store, four metre frontage, disaster store, I literally, I think I was Hang on, it was next to the South Yarra

Steve 5:41

Station, it was right, you were right in the money.

Jo 5:44

Okay, so anyway, Stevie had to make a phone call to the landlord to say, actually, this person isn't quite as ridiculous as they seem, and you should consider actually allowing them to give you money to rent your shop. And so, because of Stevie, he did.

GTN 6:03

So Steve, you've been, you've been on the Mecca journey from the very beginning. Oh, well, we used to. How long had you, Joe, how long, sorry? Had you been conceptualizing Mecca for at this point? Oh,

Jo 6:12

so MEChA Mecca had been this, I met you in, well, nine seventh, um, eighth Tuesday, the 8th of July in 1997, and I'd been working on it since late 1996. So, yeah, that's right. Yeah, a good eight months and, we used to meet monthly. So

Steve 6:36

Joe was doing all her planning and we were trying to do that. Here we are, six months out from opening this big store, and I haven't, I've got no cosmetics.

Jo 6:49

Because you wouldn't do it the standard way, and none of the cosmetics companies would go with you. None of them go with me. You wouldn't give them the big spaceship sort of landing pads that they wanted. Black

Steve 7:02

plastic and all this. So I used to meet with all these gentlemen that were running Chanel and all these companies. And I've been very fortunate in my career because I have met some great people. And I had to have dinner with them. Leonard Lauder and we used to meet in New York and, he spoke to me about all these brands that he was backing, at that stage he had Origins and Joe might remember, and I always loved Clinique, I thought that was such a, at the time it was a no brainer. So he had this wonderful energy, and then Joe turns up with all these brands, which That's the end of it. Leonard had a lot of them in terms of, you know, in his mind. So, I was fortunate that I had a fair bit of background, which I, it wasn't, it wasn't of value discussing it with Joe. And I'd also seen in England a massive change the way cosmetics were starting to be sold. So, there was a big change.

Jo 7:59

This is amazing. I'm just looking at the pictures. First of all, you know what does strike me is just how tiny that space is. And I thought it was enormous. Yeah. So that just shows you how, the size in your mind Yeah. equals the size of challenge at the time that you do it.

GTN 8:15

Yeah. It's like,

Jo 8:16

I thought it was the whole size of Georgia's when I started. Yeah. And then I'm looking at the fragrance bar next to that, which we didn't have anything to do with. Yeah. And I remember you had the most Yeah. And that's such a modern way of representing them. Yeah, the big boff. And even to this day, this is the way people want to, um, interact with fragrances. And hilariously, we're doing something not dissimilar. We are. In flagship. There's so

Steve 8:41

many similarities. The other thing, I, I knew Dennis at Aesop, and we decided we'd have women's on one side, men's on the other, because men's cosmetics were, were, at that point, funnily enough, there was that. Wonderful Italian brand in the yellow bottles, what was it called? Equita Parma. Equita Parma. We had Aesop. And so, you'd go up the stairs and we had jewellery in the middle. And, and then Joe was to the right. And then Dennis was off to the left with all the men's brands. We had lots of brands that were single brands. Particularly in fragrance. So that, with Joe's right, we had this wall, which was. I love those big bottles, you know, I would drive everyone mad about big bottles, but there used to be this fantastic, uh, sort of apothecary chemist in, Melbourne, in Ripon Lee, it was absolutely beautiful, and you walk in there, I used to go in there with my grandmother, and these big bottles, and she, she was very glamorous, and she knew all about this, and anyway, it was just, George's was really an expression of things that, And, you know, we loved and I thought Melbourne was missing, but it was. You need

Jo 9:52

to take the very best of exquisite heritage and present it in the most extraordinary modern space with such a sense of what is a customer journey across flowers, food, beauty, fashion, homeware. Accessories. I mean, truly, you know when you say, what's the one thing that you'd take to a desert island? If you had to say what was the one store anywhere in the world you'd want to have a lock in and be in, if there's only one place you could be, I would have chosen Georges.

Steve 10:29

But now we choose Flagship in Bourke Street. Unfortunately,

Jo 10:32

Steve, we're not clothing you. Flagship in, um, Bourke Street, whereas you did it. Flagship You might starve, whereas

GTN 10:40

Georges did it all. I know, I, because I'd heard of the infamous Georges for so long and when we'd been speaking previously for the Country Roadbook and stuff, and it wasn't until I saw photographs, because I'd never been, I wasn't in Australia at the time, and when it was happening. And when I saw the images, I just went, ah, this was so far ahead of its time. So

Jo 11:00

far ahead of its time. I look at it and I think about a Colette in Paris. And I go, Colette was like a little postage stamp version. Yeah. Of George's. Yeah. But I think

Steve 11:10

that's a good example. I love, I met the Colette people and the Barneys people. I loved the Barneys fragrance at that time. And um, When Jo presented her concept, it was just, it was like we'd won the lottery, because all of a sudden, I don't really, I don't remember, was I being really grumpy about you opening this? I, I thought that was No, no,

Jo 11:34

no, you weren't being grumpy at all. You were fantastic. I just knew that in your head you were going, well, best make that happen then. And like I'm not busy enough opening the biggest new lifestyle store in Australia, I'll just go and sort her out a store. And go and talk to the landlord, get him to see her, get him to go with it. And then I will champion her as she delusionally thinks that she can actually open a store from nothing. Scratch. Scratch. To design and build in a month. Yeah, you did an amazing job. Off you go Angel. Off you go Angel.

Steve 12:06

Anyway, so in this, you know, I then was going through this diary and sort of, there was, it looks as though I was sort of meeting Jo about once a month. And chatting about, um, knowing that run up to this. And then there was the absolute disaster. In other words, the concept failed due to the fact that, uh, basically, I think it was a combination of time, people, and environment, you know, basically, I take, you know, full responsibility. But one of the sad things that Joe had built, the return to square foot in the Mecca department was so far ahead of any other within the store. Some of the big mistake I made is that we put too much food in. I think the lower ground should have been menswear. Anyway, you look back, I'd love to do it again. But I am doing it again. I'd love to do it with you.

Jo 13:01

I can see this happening. Let's do it. Can I tell you, I would say, you know, and I think, As a leader, you have to take full responsibility and you have to self legislate because, you know, what's the fun in doing because you're not giving yourself a hard time all day, every day. But anyway, I think that the challenge George has had was operationally keeping up with your vision. Yeah, I think that is the only real challenge. Well, I did, you know, because now what it was, it was absolutely true. And then there

Steve 13:31

was only two people. And this was most. It was a serious mistake, because I didn't want to affect, the team at Country Road. So really there was only three people that joined us. You operate? Yeah, and I'm, I'm not the most difficult. Uh, I'm, I'm not the easiest. What? You're not the most

GTN 13:49

difficult.

Jo 13:49

I think you need to say you're not

GTN 13:50

the easiest.

Jo 13:51

I'm not the, I'm not No, but you're always five sticks. No, no, no, no. Just, no, no, no, no. Yes. And, and, and do you know what? And this is it. There are so many times I have to say to Stevie. Stevie, can you please say that again? Stevie, can you just explain in different ways what you mean there? Stevie, I don't understand what you're saying. Stevie, can you take the room with you on this journey, please? Because literally, he is, he's already over the other side of the mountain and we're all going, Wait for us! Yeah, but

Steve 14:19

I get, we get told, I get this little sign. My sign is now Angel. Jo's sign is Steve. We'll just leave that. We won't go down that rabbit hole, yes. So

GTN 14:32

So You've had, you've built this relationship through Georges, and Georges then didn't work out as you planned.

Steve 14:38

I think an important point there is, and it is a sad part of it, and this shows the resilience of Jo, Pete and Mecca, was that Georges closed in, a year after it opened, and Jo had built a wonderful base. On one day, 70 percent of her business was taken away from her. So that was brutal. Now how do you, this is, as they say, small businesses, the first three years, you make it or break it. And here it was, I'd broken this wonderful concept. And I remember

Jo 15:14

You didn't, you gave us a platform to demonstrate that it could work. That was the way in which we actually got enough customers through the door. Because, you know, Turak Road is very lovely, but sort of ten years later people would have still been discovering.

Steve 15:26

No, we got wonderful. The publicity. You know, the likes of Marion Hume and, uh, Vogue and, uh, Oh my God, everybody. Everyone.

Jo 15:37

International magazine. You know. Steve, the Aussie Georgian. No, no, no. That's how I tease him occasionally. No, no, that's

Steve 15:45

very cruel. That's very cruel. Anthia Lucas, uh, He's not Anthia,

Jo 15:49

he looks pretty dapper. Yeah, yeah,

Steve 15:51

anyway. Sharon's story, you know, that's great. The press was so behind it, like the publicity, you would not believe it if you had the time to look at it. It is mind blowing. And then we had Terence Conran, who was a huge supporter and a good friend, and so we had really, we had all the tools, but as Jo said, the number one thing is people. And you've got to have the right team at the right time and the right supporters. And, you know, hindsight's a wonderful thing I think we'd be a lot better at. But, you know, you talk about the two great qualities you've got to have is, is being kind. And being strong. I think you've also got to have another one which is called, Be Realistic.

Jo 16:40

Something that neither you nor I are very good at.

Steve 16:42

No, you are much better at reality. You're more Jo can definitely see over the mountain. I think that's why You know, I love her as much today as I did the day I met her. She hasn't changed. She's just, just got a lot better.

GTN 17:00

So what's, so post George's, this, this, obviously this relationship has continued and flourished. And, Steve, do you have an actual title within Mecca? Or are you just the magic maker, like, you know, like how do you mentor? I'm

Steve 17:13

called advisor to. The owners, I think it's called that.

Jo 17:19

I'd say you're a sort of soothsayer. No, I'm so sorry. I'd say that you're a sort of, you know, um, sort of pointer to the sun. I think you're a dreamer extraordinaire. We've been

Steve 17:31

through a lot of, you know, But the, so I think George is having the effect of saying, you know, you're not as smart as you think you are. But the great thing with Joe is we used to meet regularly and just discuss things. So really for 10 years, we were seriously good mates.

Jo 17:51

It's like a sort of coffee advisor. And then you come round for lunch or for dinner or you come down and you're like, oh. I would be down at the peninsula. And you'd start now angling us and then sort of, you know, counsel us together and then he's the counselor separately. And then, you know, as we got off our Bambi legs and things, you know, it was, we were no longer literally wobbling, wobbling upright, you know, at that point you did, you became more and you become more and more involved over time and it's everything. And it was always really big picture. But then it's been tethered into the customer experience in so many different ways, and whether that's through, you know, what should our store experience be like? And you introduced us to our architects, for example, way back in the day. And, you know, what sort of categories should we have? You were the first person that came up with MechaStack, if you remember that. And MechaStack was, you know, do more than one, you know, do more than one level. Do one, more than one experience, and we were like, Ahhhh!

Steve 18:57

That was George Street, and, you know, that was, and Joe opened that in the worst time. To open a suit, you know. The mega, the first mega store. The first flagship. Do you remember how

Jo 19:08

he did that? So that every single week. Yeah. We would spend two hours, as a group, around a table, for about a minute. And then we were online. Yeah. Every week. And we would take each aspect, and we'd design that store, we decided what would the categories be, where would they sit, what would the customer experiences be, what would the touch points be, what would the services be, what would the concierge be, what would the gift wrap be. Everything was online, once a week, and we would just knock off the topics, and it was a mix of this sort of mélange of sort of um, Theoretical, philosophical, um, you know, right through to what's the smell, what's the touch, what's the feel, what's the color, right through to, you know, how many square meters is such and such. And, you know, you were on that journey from the very beginning to the very end.

GTN 20:03

Because

Jo 20:03

that was right during lockdowns and everything, wasn't it? We literally We designed that whole store online. We took handover of that store via zoom. It's 160 years old. We got on the plane, the first plane out of Melbourne because we'd been in lockdown for five months. So we were all booked on the 6am on the Monday flight. We got in on Monday and we opened the store on Thursday and we had a virtual online launch party with 12, 000 of our closest friends from all around the world because we weren't allowed to have. And we weren't, you know, we weren't allowed to have queues. We weren't allowed to do anything. And we were sitting there going, What have we

GTN 20:46

done?

Jo 20:47

But then, we were so excited by the way it looked. Yeah, it was. And felt and smelled. And you were there. I was. You were the first person to talk to

GTN 20:57

us about it. I know. Yeah, it was, honestly, as far as beauty retail, and I still maintain it's the biggest beauty store in the world, but we We haven't got confirmation of that, have we? Have we? Well, the new one we're going to do is going to be deaf and mute. We're going to

Steve 21:11

send you away with some images. Is that alright to show?

Jo 21:15

Stevie, no. Glenis can have a look at them here. Yeah. But they must not leave the

GTN 21:21

building. But they are not leaving the building. No,

Steve 21:22

no, that's what I meant. Have a look.

GTN 21:24

This vision though, I love this vision because you've gone from, Gowing store in Sydney, which is three levels, which is extraordinary, which is beautiful. It's just a very nice place to spend time in, frankly, especially the top floor. It's just, that's Stevie's favourite. And then you've got this new one in Melbourne, Bourke Street. Like,

Steve 21:43

this

GTN 21:44

is, this will be the biggest beauty store in the world. We can confidently say that. Yeah, and it is a very good, to be on the podcast.

Steve 21:55

It is sort of one of the great things. This is something I did learn from George, is that Melbourne was, I think it was, the most wealthy city in the world in 1910. Unfortunately that's no

Jo 22:07

longer true. It's definitely no

Steve 22:09

longer true, but some of the buildings that were created in that period, and one of the things that's a great thrill about this building, it's, it's really Art Nouveau, so it's quite, it is a very beautiful building and I think that work Joe and the architects have done I think it will re energise Melbourne retail and I think that's what we need because what Jo's done is created a journey across all these zones from hair, fragrance, apothecary, you know, there's a whole experience. And I think we're going to find that, that experience of shopping is back again. You know, we've had 18 years of the internet. This is a big turning point, because I think shopping experience is something as human beings. It's a very special experience and I think, having grown up with it, and Jo's grown up with it, we feel that this store expresses, you know, a total thing about, it's, it's beauty for life. I can see mothers, grandmothers, daughters, Husbands, children, it's offering something for everyone in the form of beauty. So I think we're going into boundaries that, uh, are scary.

Jo 23:26

It is scary. I have to skip that a little bit. Yeah. What I'm saying is, if you listen to Stevie, the way he talks about building and building architecture and his mind can think in these 3D spaces, but then he changes it completely in the same sentence, to the relationship of people and The connection they have, whether they're mothers, daughters, you know, grandchildren, and the way he thinks about the customer journey, and then he can talk about, you know, the fragrances, and then he can talk about the different finishes, and then he can talk about, you know, all of these different aspects, whether it's the build, the journey, the person experiencing the journey, and that is, I think, how to build. experience that has the chance to be successful. Just like George's, I mean, any time you do something that is at the very outer edges of, you know, the atmosphere, where there is not much oxygen, because no one has been there before, you know, there is the chance of failure. It's so funny, I was talking yesterday, I was at the function, I was talking to Lisa Barron, and she goes, You are very, very brave. And I went, That and that. Very, very mad. And maybe a little foolish. But, I don't want to die wondering. None of us want to die wondering. How far can we push it? I think you have to go into these things, believing in the customer, believing that they will come, that they will support you, that you will find a way to be, laying the tracks in front of where they can even see, so they're confident in, sort of, the new experiences that you'll be taking them on. And, you just have to say, No matter what happens, because George Street, can I tell you, that first year was cold and lonely. It did not do well. There's 50 percent of the traffic, less than 50 percent of the traffic. But that was COVID. No, I know, but it doesn't matter, right? You still have to, you know, relay the tracks, relay the tracks, relay the tracks. And I think that's another thing that, um, you know, you're very much involved in that process, Stevie. It's like, what do we need to change? What do we need to change? What do we need to change? Well, it's

Steve 25:34

interesting that point, because what Joe, you know, Because I've worked with some wonderful people at MECA on property and there was a big discussion about should we be in Pittsburgh Mall? And at that point Gowings had gone, you know, is it, is it gone? So you know, would we venture away from that? And Jo and Pete have the courage to say, yeah, we'll back this one, we understand why you want to go to that.

Jo 25:59

That's so hilarious. And Pete, Stevie is so generous to say that, because Stevie. said, Why do you want to be in Pit Street Mall? Because we did. Um, definitely Gowings is going to be the future. These are all the reasons why it's going to be the future. I've been up there, I've had a look and here I'm compellingly talking to you about it. And you and Magani together, just, you know, who heads up our property, who's an absolute cracker and I have to go. But you know, Stevie, that's part of that being ahead of the hill where we can hardly even see him. Just quickly. Can you remember the best piece of advice he's ever given you? Is there one? How many now angels have you got time to listen to? Do you know, I think that it's not a piece of advice. It is Steve's unrelenting advocacy for the customer, the customer journey, and continuing to back ourselves to take risks. That. It's the ongoing timber of every conversation. And so it's not one piece of advice, it is a low level hum, all the time, exhorting us to be better. That's the advice. And, do you know what? And on that? Stevie Bennett, you're the best, and we are very lucky to have you.

GTN 27:21

Bye. Oh, I love the whirlwind. I love it.

Steve 27:25

Yeah. No, it's very special. The honesty and the sense of, um, the sense of purpose. You know, we'd laugh about our first meeting, but, people come into your life, you know, through different avenues whether it's, your wife, your children, your friends, and, People you meet, they have enormous impact on you and, I think you learn to, assess people.

GTN 27:51

Do you feel like your kindred spirits you enjoy? Oh, yeah. Did you know that from the first meeting? The first

Steve 27:57

meeting I felt it.

GTN 27:58

I love it. Steve, it's been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you,

Steve 28:05

Glenis. It's always a joy to spend time

GTN 28:07

with

Steve 28:08

you

GTN 28:08

and

Steve 28:08

I look forward to doing it many more times and Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends and on social media and rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. You can find the show on Instagram at infashion underscore podcast where you can also slide into my DMS with any questions or suggestions. Thanks again for listening to In Fashion. Until next time.